From Texas to Jiangyin: A Naval Engineer’s Journey in China w/ Julia Meyn

Susan Su (00:27)
Welcome to Liminal Space, where we explore the thresholds of identity, culture, and experience. This is a podcast for those who find themselves navigating the space in between, whether it's between cultures, between worlds, or between ideas. Each episode, we delve into the rich complexity of China's story, as told by those who exist at its peripheries. Diaspora voices, third culture kids,

and individuals who embody the bridge between tradition and modernity will uncover the insights that live in the liminal, those subtle spaces between the black and white, the familiar and foreign.

with

co-host, Matt, today we have the pleasure of introducing Julia Mai, a shipbuilder,

iron chef in training and China hard mode speed runner. So I personally actually met Julia while she was visiting Shenzhen for a mutual friend of ours that they met through an online Chinese class. And it was there that I learned that Julia worked in the maritime industry in China, where she spends her days inspecting giant ships being built in

the central part of the country. So I was, as was everyone in that gathering, very fascinated. We had no idea that there was such a robust shipbuilding industry here, or rather, I feel like we don't really think about ships that often in our lives at all. So it was very insightful to hear Julia introduce her background and her journey to this part of the world. And we'd love for her to share that with us today. So hello, Julia.

Julia Meyn (02:02)
Hi, Susan and Matt, thank you so much for inviting me. I can't wait to kind of go into my experience. Definitely a bit unique compared to most of the other foreigners you meet here. I feel like any foreigner you see on the street, you're like English teacher. And so just meeting anyone who's a little bit different, you're like, how did you end up here? So I can't wait to share this story.

Matthew Lu (02:06)
You're sure welcome.

Mm-hmm.

For sure, for sure. I guess just to start us off, like Susan said, ships are an integral part of our world and our lives, but it's not something that people really think much about. So I guess before we go on and unpack kind of your journey to China, specifically like a tier three or four city in Jiangsu from Texas, which is very far away, why don't you just unpack

Julia Meyn (02:48)
you

Matthew Lu (02:50)
little bit about kind of your relationship with ships and naval engineering. Like how did this become an area of interest or a profession that you became interested in?

Julia Meyn (03:04)
Yeah, for sure. So in high school, kind of around maybe sophomore year, you start thinking about colleges, where you want to go, what you want to do. And I kind of had two halves that I was really interested in, kind of languages and cultures and people, and then kind of like the math and science. Like I really was fascinated with how things worked, why they work, how they work together. So kind of those two different aspects. So I would kind of tour colleges

looking into different engineering disciplines and none of them fit, And it wasn't until someone, my dad actually, mentioned that naval engineering was a thing,

that was the first time that anything felt interesting, that it felt right. And so it kind of like, you know, it's like, all right, building ships is cool. Boats are cool. The water's cool. And I kind of chose naval engineering just so that I could end up living by the water. And so I kind of just went for it. And then

In college, it was very interesting because a lot of my classmates had a passion for boat building. Like their great grandfathers built the first yacht that sailed the world or, you know, all this. And I was just like, I like to swim in the ocean. I like to be by the water. I like to be on a boat, but I didn't have this like verver for like the wind sails were made of this content. And you're like, okay, that's, I'm glad that you love that.

Matthew Lu (04:18)
Wow, wow.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (04:34)
So I did feel a little,

Matthew Lu (04:34)
Some Moby Dick stuff.

Julia Meyn (04:37)
exactly. It's like my great grandmother's niece's father was actually the man who was on the Moby Dick ship that Moby Dick was inspired. You're like, wow. Okay. It's like this piece of wood is actually from this. You're like, wow, thank you. Passion. then, so I kind of felt a little out of place because I didn't have that passion.

Matthew Lu (04:47)
Yeah.

I get it now.

Julia Meyn (05:02)
I just have an interest to learn.

So I was like, so I had a lot of doubt within college of like, should I continue with maritime? It's so niche as it is. No one knows it. It seems pretty small at the time at least. But then when you think about it, it's massive. It's global. It's probably the most global kind of industry because it has to be. And so I was like, you know what? Worst comes to worst. I could get a different job, but let me just try this out because I

do like how small it is. Like you will meet people who know other people. Like it's somehow very connected and very diverse at the same time with the different people who are involved, the different jobs you can have.

So then within college, I did this program. It was called Cooperative Education. So I ended up taking every other semester off to work. I ended up graduating with like four different job experiences. And in my head, it was to kind of, yeah.

Matthew Lu (05:57)
wow, wow.

Julia Meyn (06:00)
And so I kind of wanted to start from like construction to then go backwards to the design phase. So I had, you know, a couple different actual in the shipyard experiences where I was walking around the shipyard, kind of not as intense as what I do now, but just kind of like more of a manager, like assistant to the manager, And then I ended in design and I had an idea that I would not like design and it's true.

I cannot sit at my desk for eight hours. If I don't talk to at least five different people a day, I might

so kind of like from my experiences, know, when time for graduation came around, I knew I wanted to be outside in the field, walking around. And so was kind of like looking at what jobs kind of had that,

And it wasn't until my company actually had like a, event at my school where they talked about this rotational program where you were able to rotate through four main aspects of the company. And then at the end of it, decide which path you wanted to go. And so at the time.

It was the engineering department, the surveying department, which is what I do now, the technology, and then the business management. So even though I went into the rotational program, I had a strong sense that I would choose surveying because that is what I like to do. It's, you know, 30 % office work, 70 % in the field.

Matthew Lu (07:23)
Gotcha, gotcha.

Julia Meyn (07:24)
So that's kind of

Matthew Lu (07:25)
Yeah, the lay of the land. It seems really complicated. But another, I guess, interesting thing that I'm pretty unsure about is like what actually is surveying? I mean, I guess when I think about this in my mind, I think of people with like clipboards, like walking around and looking at stuff. But what does that actually look like in terms of a

⁓ actual role, like an integral role in the ship maintenance or design or engineering, system.

Julia Meyn (07:54)
Yeah, for sure. So I work for what we call in the maritime industry, a classification society. And I would say, think about it as like the third party, like verifier to make sure that everything is in compliance. So if you go to a restaurant, you have the health food inspector, like a third party health food inspector to come in and make sure everything's up to code. And so that's my job, except an inspector looks at every single thing.

A surveyor is like a degree below that because there's just impossible. Ships are being built too quickly to be able to look at every single aspect. So you're trying to get like a general view of the land. So in my shipyard, it's a new construction shipyard and we essentially have like two sides to surveying. We have the hull side and then the machinery side.

And so whole side, you're looking at welds. You're making sure that all the different pieces of metal are in the places that those pieces of metal should be. It's like what I call, you're building the puzzle pieces of the ship to then be put together. And then the machinery is all that stuff that goes inside. So you're making sure that the piping doesn't leak. And you're making sure that all these, the...

Matthew Lu (08:48)
Okay.

Gotcha

Julia Meyn (09:11)
engine works, all these like electrical aspects work, all the safety measures are in place. And so that's kind of what you're serving. You're verifying that all of these different aspects are up to code. And I'm just the code verifier, essentially.

Matthew Lu (09:18)
Mm-hmm.

Okay. Interesting. So I guess on this topic of the surveying role, then also the current role that you're in right now in China, would you mind just telling us a little bit about why your current role is in China and maybe how it was that you came to China in the first place?

Julia Meyn (09:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. So about halfway through my rotational program, the rotational engineer manager, you know, we had our like monthly check-in and he had just casually mentioned like, oh, the HR representative of Southeast Asia is interested in having people come survey abroad sooner. Cause usually the process is you work for the company between three to five years and then they might send you abroad.

But this would be essentially an immediate send abroad, which is my dream. And I'm like, I need to schedule a meeting. What's his name again? First and last. I need to look him up. I need to schedule immediate tomorrow. So I scheduled a meeting with him pretty quickly. I'm like, what's this that I hear that you want us to come over? Like, where do you want us to come over? Like, what's, like, why? And essentially at the time, he was saying like, oh, we want people to come to South Korea.

Matthew Lu (10:27)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (10:49)
and learn about the shipbuilding industry, because it's at a level so much higher than the United States that you learn so much. So you gain all this information to then bring back to the United States. And then you're almost like an expert by the time you get back to the United States, comparatively with like the amount of time you worked abroad. So if I work abroad for three years, it's like eight years worth of knowledge just crammed into three. And so you...

Matthew Lu (11:15)
Mmm

Julia Meyn (11:17)
see more and you can catch problems a bit quicker because in the United States, one shipyard could build one ship every year and a half, every two years. My one shipyard builds 40 ships in a year. So it's just a scale that's...

Matthew Lu (11:18)
interesting.

my goodness.

Julia Meyn (11:35)
Like you can't help, but then there's like, yeah, they have like the probably the same amount of problems, but just because you see more ships, there's more things you see and like how to manage that, what we did, what kind of works before, what doesn't work. And it's just more knowledge, kind of overwhelmingly so. But, ⁓ cause I knew I wanted to do surveying. I'm like, this is everything I could ever want. So I was like, yes, sign me up. And then about,

Matthew Lu (11:35)
⁓ interesting.

Mmm.

Julia Meyn (12:03)
four months before we would have moved to South Korea, China opened up its borders again. And because China's, I'm pretty sure now, the number one shipbuilder in the world, like there's such a draw to have people come to China that the South Korea opportunity then just became only China. And then that's where my internal conflict began because South Korea,

Matthew Lu (12:19)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (12:30)
I'm familiar with it as much as any American. And then China's like, what? The great unknown, no one I've ever known has ever been there.

Matthew Lu (12:36)
The Great Unknown.

Julia Meyn (12:42)
you know, and I was kind of explaining to people at the time is that the last image I really have of China was that 2008, Olympics where it's full of smog. And I have this like a video of this like artist who goes around with a vacuum cleaner, just vacuuming the air and has a brick of dust. And so there was this like

Matthew Lu (12:54)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (13:01)
internal conflict of fear and then what I've always wanted to do. And so I think what eventually eased that and helped me decide to just go for it, have the leap of faith, was that I had a dream about being in Shanghai. And if I had a dream about being in Shanghai and it wasn't a nightmare, it was just a dream, walking around the Bund, I'm like, okay, it's not scary.

Matthew Lu (13:07)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (13:31)
And then at the time I actually had a coworker who had a young American daughter with him and she was fine. Like you look at this kid and she's totally fine. It's like an average kid anywhere. And I thought, man, if this three year old girl can live in small town China, I can as well. Like I can't have this three year old be more brave and confident than my adult self. So I just decided to come.

Matthew Lu (13:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Julia Meyn (13:59)
And then, so then yeah, and then we got put into the little spot.

Susan Su (14:00)
⁓ fascinating.

Matthew Lu (14:00)
Awesome.

Susan Su (14:02)
that's a fascinating, pivot from like an unexpected development. So yeah, so you decide to go to China, you decide to, to experience it yourself.

So you land in China, what were your first impressions? How was those first few weeks? Especially since you travel to a very small town, Jiangyin, which ⁓ most foreigners first exposure to China would be somewhere like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen. So somewhere that small, how was it like in the beginning?

Julia Meyn (14:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so in the very beginning, I spent the first month in Shanghai and you're like, wow, what was I ever worried about? Shanghai is like any major city and me being a city girl, I'm like, I, okay, this is fine. I could totally live here. No problem at all. And then after that month, we moved to small town China and it was kind of an immediate like, man, this is different, you know?

Matthew Lu (14:57)
Hmm.

Julia Meyn (15:01)
Before in Shanghai, no one would bat in China hard mode for sure. And it was the kind of thing where I kind of came over with two other Americans to my small town. And it was the kind of thing where we like stuck together that first month when we were just, not the first, like the first few weeks when we were in the hotel. So we would go eat dinner together. And it was just like a very like, man, there's nobody else like us around.

Matthew Lu (15:02)
China Hard Mode.

Julia Meyn (15:28)
Like we're eating at a restaurant and little kids will come up to the window, like an aquarium staring at us. And I'm like, okay, this is, and that was like the first taste of what life was gonna be. But it was also very calm and fine. was just the town I moved to was very family oriented. A lot of young families, of grandparents with, know, the parents with the grand kid. And so that first,

Matthew Lu (15:35)
man.

Mmm

Mm.

Julia Meyn (15:56)
kind of nine months was a struggle in the sense of like, what is there to do here? You know, cause work is intense and hard, but enjoyable and challenging and interesting and not boring. But then you want to have this whole other social life. And me back home in Houston, I had a very intense social life. And so I was just trying to find what to do with this time. And so, you know, I think everyone

Matthew Lu (16:22)
⁓ say more

about this intense social life. Like, what were you into back then?

Julia Meyn (16:25)
you

Susan Su (16:26)
Yeah.

Julia Meyn (16:28)
So, back in Houston, I would try to see at least one person every single day after work, whether we go get dinner together, just get a drink, go to comedy shows, go to these small little band concert things. My family's in Houston, so I would go visit my family. And it was just kind of like a repeat of that. Like, I realized that my hobbies was fill in the blank with friends.

Matthew Lu (16:50)
Mmm.

⁓ okay.

Julia Meyn (16:55)
You know,

go for a walk with friends. Go to the movies with friends. Go to the museum. It was just fill in the blank with friends. And now I didn't have the with friends. And I'm like, what is this fill in the blank?

Matthew Lu (17:07)
Yeah, yeah.

Julia Meyn (17:08)
And so,

Matthew Lu (17:08)
For

sure. how have you found community in China and your surroundings? Or how have you perhaps tried to engage with your surroundings in Jiangning, this smaller city?

Julia Meyn (17:26)
Mm-hmm. So it's pretty tough, I would say, to find community. I would say still haven't found community so much in Jiangyan up until recently because everyone at the shipyard, like all my coworkers, they're all dads and also hardly any. Yeah. You know, and they're fine. They're great. But we're not hanging out like that. And then.

Matthew Lu (17:43)
⁓

Julia Meyn (17:50)
Almost all my coworkers don't even live in my small town. They live in the big, bigger town nearby, because that's where the good schools are at. And so what I've kind of had to do was that I've created a small group of friends, kind of either in Shanghai, Hangzhou, and I had this big hang up around like convenience, where it's like, man, I just want to like hang out with a friend for like an hour after work. Like, I just want to go get ice cream.

Matthew Lu (17:50)
Yeah.

Mm.

Julia Meyn (18:18)
But then I realized like, well, that's not the life that you have now. So you're just going to have to do it. Like that's just the price to pay. So once I kind of like got over this idea of convenience, I was able to expand the friendship groups that I had. You know, I would meet my friends, friends, and I would just, you know, like what else was I going to do on the weekends? Might as well go somewhere and see someone and talk about something. And so that kind of helped a lot to have that mentality. But now.

Matthew Lu (18:19)
Yeah.

Julia Meyn (18:48)
recently, there's like an influx of young social people in my shipyard. And I'm like, my goodness, friends? And so now we're starting to hang out during the work week. And so now I feel pretty content and fulfilled socially, you know, through my day to day.

Matthew Lu (18:56)
Mm-hmm.

That's great. Yeah.

A lot of hide and seek around the shipyard or no?

Susan Su (19:06)
Yeah, I know.

Julia Meyn (19:09)
No, no, but there is a you kind of always keep your eye out because we ride my shipyards like, I don't know, five miles long, maybe, you know, it takes me 20 minutes on an e-bike to get to one side to the other. So it's kind of like you're always keeping your eyes out for, know, if you see them, if you're walking around, just patrolling, making sure that things are in order, you kind of keep your, you know, an eye be like, are they also patrolling at the same time?

Susan Su (19:39)
Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. And also, wanted to take a closer look at your work at the shipyard because you had brought up some very interesting statistics, like how China makes 40 ships in a year and America makes one and how your shipyard is like five miles long. I remember when we met up before, you gave this whole rundown of how shipbuilding works in China and

the layers of complexity to it, but also the efficiency. So could you maybe talk a little bit more about that? what is shipbuilding in China? what is your workplace like? And where do these ships end up? Like give us a, give us an overview.

Julia Meyn (20:18)
No, yeah, for sure.

So kind of from what I understand, because I don't read too much on maritime news, this is just what I hear from all my nerdier colleagues about the maritime industry. And some of it is from experience, but in the United States, for the most part, the only ships we're building are for the government or kind of like only use within the United States. So they're either small tugboats or, you know, merchant academy training ships.

Matthew Lu (20:28)
Hmm.

Julia Meyn (20:45)
So they're pretty, it's pretty small and pretty limited. so from what I understand is shipbuilding used to be massive in the United States around World War II, where we just needed all these ships to go out and fight. But since we don't need that anymore, a lot of them have been dying off or being bought out by, you know, foreign interests. You know, I worked at a shipyard that was bought by an Italian company. And so, right, there's that going on. So it's definitely dying. There's not a need.

Because shipbuilding in the United States is very expensive because the workforce is very expensive. The material is very expensive. What's nice about China is that it's all built here for the most part. The metal is built here. The engines are built here. All these kind of more complex, you know, systems are built here in China and it's all kind of within.

you know, 200 kilometers. So it's not that far. It's not that you have to ship the metal from so far away. It's all kind of right here. So China is like pretty much self-sufficient when it comes to shipbuilding versus not many other countries are. And then you just have such a high population. You have a large workforce. And then you just have the land as well. So with along my river, there might be 10 plus different ship

building, not even just repair yards, but like physically building new ships. so a lot European companies, ship owning companies, request to have their ships built in China. it seems like majority of the major shipping companies are having, they're switching away from Korea, which is more like specialized becoming now it's more LNG, carrier focused.

Matthew Lu (22:28)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (22:29)
Because if you don't need this kind of more intense specialized, like why not go for the cheaper, faster option that you know it works? You know, because China should build liquefied natural gas.

Matthew Lu (22:36)
What is LNG, by the way?

Julia Meyn (22:43)
Yeah, so, and then that kind of, there's like a big shift in the maritime industry to go green fuel. So like to become more, you know, environmentally friendly. So now there's a lot of dual fuel ships, which typically means, you know, the typical maritime gas fuel and then LNG. So now it's kind of like these two systems. And so now, yeah, it's a big shift, but yeah.

Matthew Lu (22:55)
Mm-hmm.

I see, I see.

Julia Meyn (23:11)
There's a big, think, so Japan used to be number one, and then Korea became number one, and now China is becoming number one, because I think they can be. They have the ability to become number one in the sense of speed and size. Like in the United States, one shipyard might have 2,000 employees. My shipyard has 17,000 employees, or at least workers.

Matthew Lu (23:33)
Wow, what the heck?

Is that a big shipyard in China?

Julia Meyn (23:37)
so I would say my shipyard is probably, from what I hear, medium sized. It's not even the biggest shipyard. It's maybe slightly above average, but it's well within the average area.

Matthew Lu (23:45)
wow.

Julia Meyn (23:51)
Yeah, so that's what's crazy to think about, is that this is just like a normal shipyard in China.

Susan Su (23:51)
So

Matthew Lu (23:52)
Okay.

Susan Su (23:54)
⁓

Yeah.

Matthew Lu (23:57)
Yeah, the

big ones.

Susan Su (23:58)
So are they all in that location though, like where you are, Jiangyin, is that like the chip building hub or kind of are they distributed throughout the country?

Matthew Lu (24:04)
Jiangsu, yeah.

Julia Meyn (24:06)
Yeah, from we have offices all along the coastline. So all the way up from Dalian to Guangzhou. so it's like all along the coast. So I think we have.

maybe 15 to 20 main areas, like main hubs, but I definitely think Jiangsu has a significant amount, but it's like broken up into thirds. like Jiangsu area is like one third, the North is one third and the South is one third. But it's, yeah, all the way along, you know, so, but it's kind of different. Zhou Shan, you know, kind of, what is it? East of Shanghai, Southeast.

That is mainly focused on repair work. So there's, I think, maybe 20 different shipyards there in those islands, but it's, you know, repair work versus inland is new construction. You know, you don't really, if there's not a need to go inland, why would you repair your ship? So a lot of the outside coastline, I think, is more repair focused versus my river is more new building focused.

Matthew Lu (24:46)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Interesting. I guess like having your background, so you've had internship and work experience in the States and then also now in China. What'd you say? are there any kind of like relevant ideas or connections that we can discern from like the differences in Chinese versus American approaches to

shipbuilding or the industry in general? Are there any like interesting trends or observations that you kind of made like comparing and contrasting the two approaches?

Julia Meyn (25:43)
Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. So I feel like the only one is kind of the.

I would say in the United States, we don't feel this pressure unless it's in the sense of new construction. We don't really feel this pressure to build super efficiently on time. Like, yes, there is some, but in China, it's like top priority. Like you can sense that this is what they're like. And it's not a question if we'll make it, we will make it.

Matthew Lu (26:06)
Hmm.

Julia Meyn (26:13)
Like if we set this deadline to build the ship, it will happen. Because in versus in the United States, it's more of like a goal. Like we have a goal to reach this time, but then there's a lot of a sense of like lack of efficiency where it's like things are not always set up. Like if I went for an inspection in the United States for a new construction, like we might not be able to test everything because it's not all set up versus in China or at least at my shipyard.

Matthew Lu (26:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (26:43)
If it's not set up, know, people are calling people to get it set up immediately because we cannot beat this deadline. Like we cannot miss it. have to. So it's, it's definitely more intense, more pressure from what I can feel and sense in China compared to the United States. But I would say like work, like construction wise, like this is something about the maritime industry in general, where we're very slow to adapt and change. So it's like.

Matthew Lu (26:57)
Yeah.

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (27:13)
You know, like it wasn't until somewhat recent, I mean, like this time a hundred years ago, we were building ships by essentially like stapling it together with rivets, know, you know, using steam versus and so now we're welding, but it's definitely like slower to get to these new technologies. But with like we have this international organization that's kind of pressuring ship

Matthew Lu (27:25)
okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Julia Meyn (27:42)
companies to become more efficient. So there's this big push to become more energy efficient from like the big maritime organization, international maritime organization to become more energy efficient by this date. now you can sense this, like, we have to get cleaner fuel and like, so the first step is to get, you know, this LNG liquefied natural gas, and then there's like future technology. So I would say

Matthew Lu (27:46)
Mm-hmm.

I see.

Okay.

Julia Meyn (28:11)
just within the past couple of decades, you know, maybe 10, you could sense this new technology is being used sooner than I think without this forced requirement, this rule change.

Matthew Lu (28:20)
Mmm.

Got it. Got it.

Cool. ⁓ and so I'm also curious to learn a little bit more about kind of this shift to like hybrid, energy or LNG implementation for, you know, environmental sustainability purposes. Like is this, where, where did the, where, where does China and the U S place in terms of like their technological capabilities or willingness to innovate and use more LNG?

And overall, how do you assess the actual environmental impact of switching over? Is it sizable or do you have some hesitations?

Julia Meyn (29:03)
⁓ so this is where it's kind of funny, like for me a little bit where I think the maritime industry causes 3 % of all global emissions, which feels like so tiny, you know, but then, you know, I think it's the kind of thing where it's like, well, we could still take, do our part because you know, ship ships run on like the dirtiest grossest

Matthew Lu (29:14)
Mmm, oh, okay. Wait, only three? Oh. Okay.

Mm, I see.

Julia Meyn (29:32)
worst fuel possible because it can. And so it's like, hey, we can be better. Yeah. Sludge, you know, so we could do better, be better. And so it kind of really depends on the ship owners and what they want and what they need to do. So now like the shipbuilders want these, you know, dual fuel ships and kind of like some ship owners want these do fuel ships that can then eventually use the next better

Matthew Lu (29:34)
Yeah, gutter oil.

Julia Meyn (30:00)
green energy efficient fuel, but it's not quite ready because there's not enough ports that have this fuel available. It's all about the readiness of the world too. So it's not so much against United States, China, it's the world. Like if you're able to carry this super great and use a super great clean fuel, but then none of the ports have it except for two in the world, how beneficial is that? So it's like we all together need to

Matthew Lu (30:03)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ Yeah, yeah.

Right, right.

Julia Meyn (30:28)
improve not so much like who's doing it it's like all of us at the same time because these ships travel all over the world yeah

Matthew Lu (30:32)
Yeah ⁓

Interesting, we all gotta be better.

Susan Su (30:38)
Got it. Yeah, I never

thought about it from that perspective as well. But when you think about how much logistics goes on all over the world, the cohesion is, I imagine, very important here. So I'm also curious, because you mentioned ship owners. And you also mentioned in beginning that most of these ships are commissioned or they don't end up within China. So I guess what percentage of the...

you say like of the ships you've worked on are actually Chinese owned or are they mostly just like Chinese shipbuilding OEMs that'll make them for other companies out there?

Julia Meyn (31:15)
So the projects that I'm working on, kind of how it works at my office is that you're assigned to like one ship owner. So I've been working for the same ship owner for the past two years and it's a Singaporean company. But there's, you know, Greek owners.

Italian or I think French owners. So it's very kind of mixed and diverse, I would say with ship owners, because, and this is the part of the world where I also don't know too much because in the United States, I don't think we really have ship owners. Like no one's really has like a fleet. Like we do, but to just as such a small scale. And it's like river ships, you know, or like along the coastline. So they're not big, they're not international versus these

But then again, I'm 100%. Everything I'm saying about these ship owners, I'm not 100%. It's just what I believe and what I've seen. ⁓ And then I would say for like Chinese ship,

Matthew Lu (32:06)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (32:10)
Yeah.

Matthew Lu (32:10)
Yeah, like a freighter.

Julia Meyn (32:14)
for like Chinese shipping companies, if a Chinese owned shipping company wants a built, like a ship, they would probably go to use like not my company because they don't need my company. They're most likely going to use the Chinese version of this because we have 10 classification societies. And so I think a Chinese company, just like an American shipping company, would use the American version.

Susan Su (32:31)
Mmm.

Julia Meyn (32:41)
versus Europeans, they kind of pick and choose. They use like a European one, like mine, there's kind of five major ones. And so if you're a big international shipping company, you would want to diversify which classification society you're with. So they might choose between four. So they have like a rotation, like 20 % go to this company, 20%. But then also even if a

Matthew Lu (32:50)
interesting.

Makes sense.

Julia Meyn (33:09)
company builds a ship under my company's codes, they can switch. It's not a permanent. So a lot of companies will switch classification societies. So it's all this mixing. And then ship owners will sell ships to other ship owners, and they could choose a different classification society. So nothing's permanent. It's always moving hands when it comes to rules, like what rules you follow.

Matthew Lu (33:22)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (33:31)
you

Matthew Lu (33:31)
Yeah.

Julia Meyn (33:37)
there's like two sets of rules. There's the international standards and then our classification standards. So the international standards are same for everybody. And then we have our own personal rules that tie into the international ones, but some of them are like the verbiage is different, the alarms are different. It's, but more or less very similar.

Matthew Lu (33:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (33:59)
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, so that ties into my follow up actually, which is how your company fits into all of this. Because just from our conversation, seems like you guys don't actually build or design or partake in the process, but you're more of the third party inspectors that ship owners who are getting their fleets made can hire to make sure that things are on spec and to monitor that progress. Is that right?

Matthew Lu (34:00)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (34:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, kinda how it, from my understanding, this is how it works. The ship owner will contact a shipyard saying like, hey, I wanna build this type of ship for like, and then they like work whatever financial stuff, but like this type of ship, you know, design it. And so the shipyard will design and figure out all the different components and then.

between the shipyard and the ship owner, they'll decide which classification society they choose. And so once that's chosen, the three of us kind of come together and sign a contract saying like, you are going to build this ship with these specific items and we will, like my company will provide you with these documentations to follow these sets of rules, blah, blah, blah. And then we start. And so then the shipyard designs the ship and will send my company

Matthew Lu (35:20)
Hmm.

Julia Meyn (35:23)
the engineering drawings, which we review and make sure that they are within the rules, both the international standards and our rules. And so then they get those drawings approved. Once the drawings are approved, the ship then starts construction. And then our job is to verify that the ship is building to our approved drawings. so then the ship between ship owner

Matthew Lu (35:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

They're kind of like auditors, right?

Julia Meyn (35:51)
Kind of, because then the ship owner's also with us as well. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like the two of us together then go essentially see the shipyard's work. And the ship owner will have different standards that we have. Like for us, is this like the nicest looking thing? It's like, no, but it's within our rules. The ship owner might make a comment and be like, hey, I want you to fix this, blah, blah.

Matthew Lu (35:52)
for like constructing. ⁓ okay.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (36:16)
we'll make comments, like, I need you to do this. And the ship owner might be like, that's not, it's like we have similar priorities, but sometimes it varies. But we usually try to like.

Matthew Lu (36:20)
We need

Mm-hmm. We need more luxurious

toilets.

Julia Meyn (36:29)
Yeah, you're like, me, the shower. No, they're not. They're not too picky when it comes to that. of course, like the ship owners want the nicest, best, efficient functioning, ship versus like for us, it's like, you know, we have these like minimum standards

Matthew Lu (36:33)
No.

Julia Meyn (36:44)
And what's different about new construction versus after construction is that new construction, we're, all three of us are always at the shipyard for years at a time versus after construction, the owners are in and out within a week max. So you don't build this like relationship between either the shipyard or the owner versus with new construction, you can really

Matthew Lu (37:02)
Mm.

Okay.

Julia Meyn (37:09)
build and foster a relationship.

Matthew Lu (37:13)
like a huge project, guess. Each project has its own crew, right?

Julia Meyn (37:18)
the shipyards kind of set up We're like this area has a crew this area has a crew, but it's like the same crew You know so you see the same faces like the same ship owners will stay for the whole duration of that project and a lot of the ship owners are like Constantly rolling new projects. So it's like they're constantly signing new contracts and because the shipyard builds so many ships

Matthew Lu (37:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (37:41)
If they sign a contract today to build ships, it won't be built from two years from now, because the shipyard's already booked up with all the previous orders. And so then, you know, you kind of just have this sometimes steady stream of ship owners. Sometimes ship owners leave and then they come back. It kind of just depends on the project and what they want to build. But I would say average two years for a project.

Matthew Lu (37:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Okay, cool.

Got it, okay. What are some interesting unorthodox or strange design choices for ships that maybe you've had the chance to look over and you're like, what the heck? What are they thinking? Or like, this is pretty cool. Never thought about it.

Julia Meyn (38:24)
So.

there's one example that comes to mind. It hasn't started yet, but it's like on the horizon and it looks weird. And it's called wind sails. And when you first hear wind sails, you think it's like, you're gonna put like a canvas, a canvas pirate ship sail on like this metal massive boat. Like, what are we doing here? But it's actually like these like,

Matthew Lu (38:37)
Ha

Elegant.

Julia Meyn (38:51)
cause this is like brand new technology. it's just within the past few years, people are starting to implement this technologies. Cause LNG, liquified natural gas, that's some older technology that is being implemented more frequently now. It's not so new. It's not so like, how does this work? But this is, you know, within the past five years and it's called wind sales. And I,

Matthew Lu (39:13)
Mm.

Julia Meyn (39:16)
essentially believe it's like these pillars that come out of the ship that uses wind energy to help be more efficient with propulsion. And you're like, okay. And so the project that I'm now working on has three of them. Yeah, bring back old technology, make it new. And so that's the kind of thing where it's interesting to see how it's going to be implemented because it's the first time

Matthew Lu (39:26)
Mmm.

Throwback.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

Julia Meyn (39:45)
that the shipyards ever really working with this technology. And so this is where you can kind of feel the hesitation because it's not like a standard design, a standard technology. it's a higher risk because, you know, the ship owners might demand a certain efficiency that the shipyard can't guarantee because this would be the very first time in, I'm pretty sure,

Matthew Lu (39:53)
Mmm.

tried and true.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (40:12)
China, there's like a couple projects going on at the same time that would be building, implementing this wind sale. And so it's like, how can you, and so it's like the shipyard doesn't want to take on that risk. It's like, Hey ship owner, if you want to implement these sales, go for it. But like, we can't guarantee anything. Like we'll help put it on the boat. We'll like build the ship so that it can handle it. But everything else, like how.

Matthew Lu (40:19)
Yeah, yeah.

Julia Meyn (40:38)
good it works, how efficient it makes your propulsion, that's on you. We're not signing up for that. And so now there's kind of like some complications of like, how do we get these wind sales over and whatnot? And so it's interesting to see how, because it's like being talked about now at my shipyard on my project, how this technology might happen. Because the only instances we see this being implemented

Matthew Lu (40:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (41:06)
is in modification repair work, where it's like after the ship has been sailing for a few years, they've installed it. But never, we've never seen it yet in new construction. So from the beginning, because so it's like, huh. So this is something where I'm like, this is an interesting design, because, you know, how does it work? How efficient can your ship be in saving fuel and whatnot? Because this is like

Matthew Lu (41:10)
⁓

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (41:34)
all tied back to like the green energy. Like this is a way to have greener energy.

Matthew Lu (41:37)
Mm-hmm.

a really great example of kind of bringing back this older form of technology, combining it with newer technological innovations and then using it to achieve a goal, which is pretty dang cool. But if it doesn't work, then I guess they'll be mocked as like the pirate people forever.

Susan Su (42:01)
Yeah, yeah, and kind of following up on that, I'm curious on how the from your experience, what the attitudes of these Chinese shipbuilding facilities, the personnel there have been like about whether adopting a new technology or trying out a novel or unusual design implementation. just speaking from from experiences with many of the manufacturers.

Matthew Lu (42:19)
Mm.

Susan Su (42:27)
I work with in supply chains, oftentimes they are they're very rigid in the level of detail, but also in their SOPs and their standard operating procedures and the way they do things. So at times when clients introduce something new, there's always a lot of reluctancy, a lot of back and forth negotiating liability concerns and all of that.

What has been, ⁓ I guess, how has that played out? I suppose in this example and in other ones you've seen where there's been something new introduced and has there been any cultural blockers there between like some of like the more Western clients and the Chinese manufacturers?

Matthew Lu (42:58)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (43:08)
Yeah, I would say it's pretty similar. Like from what I can sense is that you don't want to be the first one because it's like, ⁓ you know, you don't want to fail versus like if another shipyard does it, you can look at them by example, be like, okay, well, how is the ship doing now? How is it going? And the fact that this is so new, I think there is a lot of hesitation. Not that the fact that they couldn't do it.

Susan Su (43:20)
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Lu (43:21)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (43:37)
But it's just that they kind of really, at least now, put all that risk on the owner. Like, you're going to add these wind sails, like these three metal columns in the ship, you know, to have 10 % more efficiency. That's cool. But like, you're going to have to talk to your engineers. You're going to have to do your own, you know,

Matthew Lu (43:58)
That's chill.

Julia Meyn (44:03)
manufacturing, research, procurement, because you know, but that's just kind of like, because but this is just, it's currently happening now. And it's interesting where it's like, well, how is this going to work out? Like what's going to happen? Because the ship owner is very interested in this new technology. And so I think it's going to be

Matthew Lu (44:24)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (44:26)
probably a challenge, I would say, for many ship owners to implement this super novel technology that's not needed and hasn't been used often.

Susan Su (44:36)
gotcha. Now I'm also curious on kind of your involvement in not just this, but kind of your day to day then, since you deal with a lot of stakeholders from both like the client side, but also the Chinese manufacturers. So what is kind of your day to day interactions like? And also combined with the fact that you still learning Chinese and that's how like we kind of met.

I assume your work language is all in English, but I assume a lot of things also get lost in translation because of the technicalities. So what is your day to day like with navigating this as an American who is just starting to get proficient in the local language?

Julia Meyn (45:19)
Yeah, so I would say my involvement with these stakeholders is extremely low because I feel like I'm just that literal blue-collar worker. I put on my boiler suit and they're like, go out and make sure things are okay. And I'm like, you got it, boss. So I don't really, like I have interactions with shipyard workers, be like, hey, you need to fix this because XYZ.

or it's like, okay, we're following the procedure, let's step by step. So it's not so much any really communication with the higher ups at the shipyard or higher ups that frequently with the ship owners until kind of like the end of the project, which is where we give all these documentations that state like, yes, the ship follows these rules, sign, stamp, deliver. Because in my day to day, I am working with

Matthew Lu (46:10)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (46:15)
the ship owners who are also doing the inspection with me and we'll have like a discussion, be like, hey, and because I'm still learning to do this job and learning the language, like I don't know ship building terminology in Chinese. I only know gossip words, you know, I'm here for chit chat. You know, it's like, you know, do you have, bagua? I'm all about that bagua. that's all I want to know about.

Matthew Lu (46:31)
Hmm. Also helpful.

Julia Meyn (46:42)
So like my day to day is more like, it's a lot of eye contact. You know, I look at the safer hole and if it's like the welding is not great, I'll like point at it, look at him and I'll like mark it up and he'll give me the thumbs up like, I understand. And then you kind of just move on. So it's not that much. Yeah.

Matthew Lu (46:56)
that's hilarious.

⁓

What are some other like eye maneuvers

that you can do to communicate different things?

Julia Meyn (47:07)
It's a lot of like looking at the document because it's the for like a test procedure. It's written in Chinese and English. And if I get to an English session like section, I'm like, what's this about? They'll read the Chinese and they're like, hmm. I'm like, are we going to do this? but then for like whole with like poor welding or if like

Matthew Lu (47:21)
You

Julia Meyn (47:27)
that like there's the metals like bent. we have standard symbols that we write so they know. So it's not anything super surprising. And then when I talk to, cause I don't know the term for welding or grinding or like there's a pour, there's like a hole, like fix it. There's some damage, fix it. They just, have these standard symbols that, you know, so someone,

Matthew Lu (47:34)
Okay, okay

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (47:52)
either like shipyard worker themselves or like a QC quality control who like takes all like at the end of the inspection, we have like an inspection report. And if I have any comments, I'll write the comments. And so he will keep track or if I would go back out and check them. And so usually there's a worker who's like watching me look at what I'm looking at and look at the comments I'm writing. But you know, for the most part,

Matthew Lu (48:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (48:17)
if there's like something wrong and you could look with your eyes, you can look at them and you could just be like, buha. And they're like, yeah, it's bad.

Matthew Lu (48:20)
Yeah.

like

there's a hole here, point at it and look at them and then they'll just nod.

Julia Meyn (48:28)
Yeah, it's like, come on. you're like,

yes, they'd be like, mm-hmm, yep, fix it. So there's not, like I haven't, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Lu (48:34)
Yeah, that's a hole. That's funny. So you have like a symbolic

language in between English and Chinese that you can kind of both work through.

Julia Meyn (48:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I feel like half, because in the shipyard, it's like just kind of body language. You're just kind of trying to communicate where it's like, you know, I point to a drawing. And I know enough would be like, where Nali and they're like, I'll show you right now. It's like great, because I haven't really felt like it would be super beneficial to know more in depth maritime Chinese words.

Matthew Lu (48:58)
Yeah. ⁓

Julia Meyn (49:11)
but I haven't really felt like, like if you don't have it, you're gonna struggle because there's plenty of foreign ship owners. like a ship owner will have like maybe half the staff foreigners, half the other staff local Chinese. So there's always a mix. So if it's like another foreigner, you know, we like, there's usually like one guy in our like little group of like testing who could speak English.

Matthew Lu (49:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (49:38)
well enough to communicate what we're doing. if it's a Chinese ship owner representative, they mainly speak Chinese and I'm just like, hopefully I can follow this procedure or I'll stop you like, okay, what did you guys talk about? And so it's just definitely patience, eye contact, body language, reading, to understand what's going on.

Matthew Lu (49:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm, that's...

Susan Su (50:03)
Yeah, wow, no, I'm sure

it's a lot of just navigating a lot of verbal cues. This like, yeah.

Matthew Lu (50:07)
Sounds really interesting and fun. If it weren't so like grueling hours wise.

Julia Meyn (50:14)
Yeah,

it's, yeah, because it's the kind of job where I know I can't do this forever because it's physically demanding most of the time. But it's not boring, which I appreciate because I can't handle a job that has like, like the sense of like, not boringness, but it's just like, ⁓ day in day out, you like do the same thing over over again, like

Matthew Lu (50:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (50:39)
Every day, like I can have a sense of what I do, but I won't know exactly what I do until we start dividing up the day's work. So, know, like one day I could be on board the ship, looking at some test procedures, looking at alarms coming in. The next day I could be on the side of the ship, looking at welding to make sure that it meets, you know, it's good, make the marks I need to make. The next time it could be like not on the ship, just like.

Matthew Lu (50:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (51:06)
one of the puzzle piece, whole pieces, you're like, okay, all these metal pieces are aligned with the other metal pieces and they're all welded correctly to what the drawing says. So it's just such a vast, mean like, know, Schweige, how the...

Matthew Lu (51:10)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Susan Su (51:25)
Yeah, wow. That sounds very interesting and lots of task variety, which is definitely good for someone like you. Like you said, you need to talk to people every day. You need ⁓ that engagement. So you've been at it for almost two years now. earlier you also mentioned that when you're working like this in Asia, you oftentimes get eight years of knowledge crammed into three years.

Matthew Lu (51:34)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (51:49)
So as you're approaching your like kind of two year mark of your, China part of your maritime engineering journey, what would you say are some of the most valuable things you've learned or not even most valuable, just like the highlight of your learning here?

Julia Meyn (52:07)
Yeah, so one of my coworkers kind of described working here in China, like learning how to do this job in China, like drinking water from a fire hose. So like you're definitely drinking more water.

Matthew Lu (52:17)
Ha ha.

Susan Su (52:17)
Wait, that's crazy because that's how they describe

Julia Meyn (52:20)
that's kind of how it feels now that I'm two years, I'm pretty settled in the sense of like the feeling, but that first like six to nine months, I'm like, this is overwhelming. Like how am I supposed to do a good job when I don't even know the job? But now like I'm kind of used to that feeling where it's like, it's okay. Like it's okay, cause you know what? I have like,

great coworkers that support, like if I have a question, because they have so much knowledge. And talking to them, it made me realize like, I won't feel like super knowledgeable in everything until like a decade, because it does just take time. It takes time to see the same things over and over again. But then I would talk to like, my colleagues back in the United States who do the same type of job. And we'll like kind of discuss every once in a while like,

Matthew Lu (52:57)
Mm.

Julia Meyn (53:10)
we'll ask each other questions like, hey, has anyone experienced this problem? And then some of us can answer. But just that knowledge is definitely different because I could see the same process from start to finish eight times over when my coworker has only seen it maximum twice. So it's like, ⁓ I know that this is a problem with the installation of this piece. I'm always going to go check it because we've had these kind of like,

Matthew Lu (53:30)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (53:39)
small manageable problems, but it's like needs to be fixed on the past X amount of projects. So it's like, I'm always like, now I'm always looking out for this versus my coworker is like, I even realized that I had to look out for this because this is my first time seeing it, even though I've been doing this job also for two years. So there's like these small things that are like the hotspots, you know, you're always like, I'm always going to check these things.

Matthew Lu (53:49)
Mm.

Mmm.

Julia Meyn (54:03)
even if you walk around the ship to do one other inspection, you can always do some spot checking as you're going around. Like, let me hit up my hotspots. Let me check out the layout and overview. And so you get to build this hotspot sensor more being here in China than I think, yes. Where it's like, you're walking around the ship and you're always like, okay, well, now that I'm on the ship, let me...

Matthew Lu (54:11)
Yeah.

instinct.

Julia Meyn (54:31)
check out these things because on the past few ships, this has not been installed the best or it's this painting needs to be here or this marking is like missing. And then you can kind of just be in a space you're like something's off. what's,

Matthew Lu (54:37)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (54:47)
and it's like you almost like sense like something's like what needs, what's happening here? Like what's going on?

Susan Su (54:52)
You develop

Matthew Lu (54:53)
Yeah,

Susan Su (54:53)
that intuition.

Matthew Lu (54:54)
yeah, that's great.

Julia Meyn (54:54)
Exactly. And so I think you

develop it quicker here in China. Like for sure. I know for a fact, or it's like, you know, my coworkers will message me like, did you know XYZ? I'm like, no, yeah. Like, what you, what? What? You didn't know this? It's like, yeah.

Matthew Lu (55:07)
Yep. How did you not?

Susan Su (55:10)
Yeah, you've seen it like 10 times already, like in the in

Matthew Lu (55:14)
The

Susan Su (55:14)
half a year.

Matthew Lu (55:14)
experiential reps for sure. That's a no joke. And also reminds me of like how some doctors in China, like because the sheer scale of like the amount of patients that they have to see versus like doctors in the States, like they also develop like, can like tell kind of their sixth sense, like what's wrong with you in like two minutes by asking you like three questions and they might not be like super nice, but

Julia Meyn (55:17)
Mm-hmm.

You

Matthew Lu (55:42)
They get the job done, right? And they got to help so many people. So yeah, it's like another parallel.

Julia Meyn (55:49)
No, for sure. Because yeah, it's just like the scale. It's like this, right? Isn't it with everything, like the more frequently you do something, the more frequently you see something, the better you get at it. And that's like true with everything. And it's like so annoying that it's true. Like you wish it wasn't, but you're like with practice makes perfect. And you're like, I hate how that statement's true. So, you know, with more and more practice, you get better and better. but also,

Matthew Lu (55:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia Meyn (56:15)
For me, one thing that I'm not like worried about, but just like one thing on my mind is that I'm doing such heavy new construction work that when I go back to the United States, it's most likely going to be after construction, which is like a totally different, you know, side of this industry. Cause I work a typical eight to five. Like it's every day.

Matthew Lu (56:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (56:40)
Like sometimes you have to stay longer. Sometimes you have to arrive earlier, but for the most part, standard versus after construction. It's like, Hey, a ship's coming in in six hours. We need you to go on board, look at everything in eight hours and find all like the things that need to be fixed. And they need to fix it within two days. So it's like a different pace. Cause now I'm kind of used to like taking my time to look at things like, yes, we have an inspection.

Matthew Lu (57:02)
⁓ Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (57:09)
But if we end early, I can walk around because we essentially have like six months to look at everything versus with after construction, you have a day if that. And I'm like, ⁓ that's, you know, so that's kind of like the different learned, like different use of the knowledge. So, you know, seeing how, you know, everyone says that new construction is a great place to learn because you learn how it should look like.

Matthew Lu (57:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, for sure.

Julia Meyn (57:37)
from the start. So when you go on board to like a 20 year old ship, you're like, that doesn't look like how it should be. What's going on here? They'd be like, ⁓ well, we switch something around. We'd be like, well, you got to switch it back, blah, And so, and then like the owner relationship, like the, you know, class owner shipyard relationship is different because I feel like in new construction, you're really trying to like build a relationship versus after construction.

Matthew Lu (57:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (58:05)
you just need to get the job done. Like you're not this like super like fostering and nurturing and be like, like how are you today? How's it going? Like still polite, but you're like, I'm good. You're going to leave in a day. And so you need to get this things done and we're not going to bend to it. You know?

Matthew Lu (58:08)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay,

it's like less human less interesting I suppose ⁓ Yeah So I guess you talked about I guess maybe Going back to the US or staying further. So when you you've been here in China for like two years What what do you? Anticipate I guess like for your future. You want to stay longer in China or Asia?

Julia Meyn (58:28)
Yeah.

So I do.

Matthew Lu (58:49)
go somewhere else. Yeah, any plans for the future?

Julia Meyn (58:52)
I have, so I have like the near future kind of planned out and then everything after that is what I'm trying to figure out now. So I've been here for two years. I see myself staying for another two more years. There's like a few kind of like project management aspects I want to learn that I might be able to get that opportunity to do within the next two years. And then to do.

Matthew Lu (59:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Julia Meyn (59:21)
Like what to do afterwards is that that's the big dilemma that I've been thinking about because I think working in China in the shipbuilding industry is just wow. Like that is an crazy, amazing title. And then to just be like, I'm a surveyor in the United States as an American doesn't have that same ring, doesn't have that same interest because one thing that I'm

Matthew Lu (59:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (59:47)
really learning more about myself now is I like a challenge. I like to climb a super difficult mountain and be like, I have made a successful life here in China. Like, wow, look at this. Because I know I can make a successful life for myself in the United States. Like that is a known fact. It's not a challenge. So like right now I'm trying to figure out what is going to be that next challenge. Because I think I like it, even though it's

Matthew Lu (59:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:00:14)
in the time, in the moment of climbing that mountain, I'm like, why did I ever choose to climb this super difficult, intense task? But then once I kind of like get to the other side, I'm like, I feel pretty accomplished, you know, and I've kind of always done like the harder path. Like I've always chose the slightly more challenging path. And so moving to China and doing this job, that's, whoa, that's

Matthew Lu (1:00:23)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:00:43)
been the most challenging thing I've ever done. And so now I'm like, okay, what's the next big thing? And so I've been kind of, you know, debating, like, I might go back to the United States just to be around my friends and family more frequently. But then I'm thinking, like, kind of like what next international thing I might do, because I do sense that I might be abroad for like the next decade. You know, it's like what and then like,

Matthew Lu (1:00:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm, okay.

Julia Meyn (1:01:11)
With that interest, like what can I do with it? You know, I'm building this like industry knowledge, because I would definitely want to stay more maritime industry. I like this industry. I like how vast and small it is at the same time. And so it's like with this in-depth technical knowledge and my desire to talk and connect with people and my desire to be abroad, like what can I do with all of that?

And so right now I'm definitely like exploring like different options. So like right now I'm just kind of like keeping my eyes and ears open to what the next thing is.

Matthew Lu (1:01:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Awesome.

Susan Su (1:01:52)
For sure, for

sure. And you still have some time. mean, you have two more years in China. That's the plan. I'm sure you'll learn lots. it's an enjoyable part of the challenge, just getting to learn and to improve yourself. I guess you talk about work challenges and just learning so much on a day-to-day basis.

And now kind of like on the life part, what has been the challenges of living here? You did mention some of it in very beginning of in like China on hard mode, small city, lack of activities. I guess what would you say have been the biggest takeaways from that and how have you tried to overcome these challenges?

Matthew Lu (1:02:33)
Feel free to share any funny stories too. We like those.

Julia Meyn (1:02:33)
Yes, I would say the...

Susan Su (1:02:37)
Yeah.

Julia Meyn (1:02:39)
Okay, let me see. I think definitely the biggest challenge for me was the social aspect. was, you know, I felt pretty isolated in the beginning just because there's like a lack of young people and then there is this sense because I'm like an obvious foreigner is that I feel like a low-level local celebrity. That's how I describe it to people.

I'm a low level local celebrity. People are like, feel like, you know, you walk around the mall, I'm surprised more people haven't died from broken necks from how quick they've done a second look at me. And I kind of describe it. And it's like, and it's kind of makes sense because also if I saw someone, because how I describe it, because no one's looking at me like, you don't belong here. It's more like complete shock.

Matthew Lu (1:03:20)
⁓

Susan Su (1:03:22)
haha

Julia Meyn (1:03:35)
Like if you saw a horse confidently walking through a mall, you'd be like, okay, but like you're gonna look at that horse. And so that's kind of how I feel. It's like, why is this horse here? And you're just like curious, but like you can't communicate with the horse. Like you don't know horse speak, but you're like, man. And so that's kind of how it feels to be in this small town where it's like,

Matthew Lu (1:03:43)
That's hilarious.

Julia Meyn (1:03:57)
Even though I moved from like a tiny town to a slightly bigger tiny town, I would go into a space like for the second time. The first time was like four months ago. The second time they'll come up to me. And because now I'm learning Chinese and my Chinese is to like a three year old level, I kind of understand what they're saying. And they'd be like, wow, you were in here months ago. This is your second time, isn't it? I'm like, yes, it is. And we didn't even speak that.

Matthew Lu (1:04:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

they're so observant.

Susan Su (1:04:24)
you

Julia Meyn (1:04:25)
so observant. Like I will learn more about what the foreigners that I know are doing in the tiny town from Chinese people. Like, ⁓ did you see that this? Did you see like he's in the United States right now? And I didn't even know this. It's like, yeah, he's at the basketball game. I'm like, how do you know? It's like, well, because these people posted and I'm like, wow, wow. And it's what people know everything like people like

Matthew Lu (1:04:35)
my goodness, that's hilarious.

What the heck?

The grapevine, man.

Julia Meyn (1:04:55)
One time I got off the bus and one man was really looking at me and I'm like, okay. And then like 10 minutes later, my Chinese friend messaged me like, hey, do you get off at the bus stop at this place? I'm like, I do. It's like someone I know saw you there. I'm like, great, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, people, and it's the kind of, and it's like, you don't, it's man. So it's like that people keep tabs on you and then it's not like,

Matthew Lu (1:05:09)
⁓

Susan Su (1:05:11)
Wow.

Matthew Lu (1:05:11)
my god. Very family oriented town. One big

family.

Julia Meyn (1:05:25)
I know it doesn't mean like it's not that deep, it's like, so it's like, you know, just embrace it. Like, ⁓ yeah, I was there. ⁓

Matthew Lu (1:05:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Thanks.

Julia Meyn (1:05:37)
But I think what's some of the funny, and this is like, I think a difference a little bit from like US to China is that you meet, you know, someone local, they ask you the same five questions every single time. Like, what's your name? Where are you from? How old are you? Like what you do for work? And like, are you single? And it's like everyone, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the context is. We could be at like a friend, like a friend dinner or at the shipyard.

Matthew Lu (1:05:58)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:06:06)
And it's like, ⁓ and if depending on how you answer it, they're like, my goodness, let me pull you out my Rolodex of single men for you right now. And I'm like, okay. And it's like, everyone, everyone's talking to be like, you're learning Chinese from a Chinese teacher? No, it's not the way to do it. You know what you need? And I'm like, let me take a guess. Chinese boyfriend? Yes, exactly. I'm like,

Matthew Lu (1:06:16)
⁓

Wow.

Julia Meyn (1:06:35)
And so this is what I said, like, introduce

Matthew Lu (1:06:36)
It's truth to that.

Julia Meyn (1:06:37)
me, introduce me. I don't say no, it's like, really? Would your parents be okay if you dated a Chinese person? I'm like, yeah. It's like, what about marrying? I'm like, yeah, they would be okay. It's like, really? I'm like, I have yet to be set up on a date though. You know, they keep.

Matthew Lu (1:06:50)
Yeah.

Susan Su (1:06:52)
They're so admin-tive outlet

Matthew Lu (1:06:52)
Hmm.

Susan Su (1:06:53)
though. They keep asking you. Gotta follow through.

Julia Meyn (1:06:55)
They keep asking me and I'm,

Matthew Lu (1:06:58)
Kinda cute though.

Julia Meyn (1:06:58)
there was one time one coworker, it's very cute. He sat me down at a company dinner. He's like, okay, Julia, what are your requirements? And I gave him some like stupid basic requirements. And he was like, okay, I'll see what I can do. Silence. You know, I think, and I don't know if this is amongst everyone else, but at least in my office, some of the most nosy,

people I've ever met. They want to know what's going on in your life all the time. It's like, you're going to go visit your friend in Shanghai? Boy or girl? I'm like a girl. It's like, okay, okay. And then I'll come back from the weekend to be like, how was your weekend? I'll be like, it was great. It's like, any shuigas? I'm like, what? Always asking. They're like, I know the city is known for their shuigas. I'm like, no, no shuigas. Like what?

Matthew Lu (1:07:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Okay.

Strikers.

Julia Meyn (1:07:52)
Impossible. I'm like.

Matthew Lu (1:07:54)
Ha ha

ha.

Susan Su (1:07:54)
Yeah, no, I even wonder if that's how they, because they feel that this is, this might be like a universal thing, like relationships. So this is probably one of the few ways I feel like they can relate to have a conversation.

Julia Meyn (1:07:55)
So it's.

Yeah.

Matthew Lu (1:08:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Meyn (1:08:06)
And I also think that that's kind of how dating in small town China is. It's not dating apps or going out in person. It's your mom meeting some other woman who has a kid around your age and you're like, meet. And that's how like, it's you have your Rolodex. It's like, yeah, it's just a bunch of blind dates. Like that's how a couple of my friends have dated people is like.

Matthew Lu (1:08:21)
Yes.

Julia Meyn (1:08:30)
their parents will introduce you or like their aunties will introduce you to some person. And in my head, from my experience of small town Chinese people, is they're extremely shy. I think making eye contact with me is like the most intense and stressful moments of their life. So the idea of going on a double date with some poor local Chinese man with one of, whoever coworker and his wife sounds like,

Matthew Lu (1:08:35)
Exactly.

Mmm.

event. ⁓

Julia Meyn (1:09:00)
the worst, most awkward double date and I'm like, I'm here for it. Do it. I can't wait for this man to avoid eye contact with me as if it's like against the law. Where it's like, I cannot even face her. And I'm like, yeah, I can't wait. And then afterwards my co... Exactly. You know, cause...

Matthew Lu (1:09:05)
Yeah, yeah.

haha

Mm-hmm. It's just the respect. It's too respectful. He can't look at you.

Julia Meyn (1:09:27)
It's, you know, and it's all, I know it's all fun and games, you know? So I'm just like, why not play into it? You know, I can, they're like, would you really? like, do it. I bet you won't do it. I'm.

Matthew Lu (1:09:39)
Yeah, you won't.

Julia Meyn (1:09:41)
Yeah. So it's very fun.

Matthew Lu (1:09:43)
Two more years though,

I think it'll happen. It'll happen.

Susan Su (1:09:46)
Maybe they'll try to open

up more in two years. I still have time.

Julia Meyn (1:09:49)
Yeah, because also

like with the two years, like another reason why it's like I want to get better at my Chinese because like I feel like now that I'm talking a bit more in Chinese, I'm getting a bit more confident where it's like, you know what? So what if my vocabulary is like a two year old? I'm going to be the most enthusiastic two year old you've ever met. It's like, wow. Because one thing also about Chinese people in small town, you speak

Matthew Lu (1:10:03)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:10:16)
two words of Chinese and they're giving you endless praise. They're like, oh my God, I've never heard such better Chinese in my entire life. You're expert Chinese level. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, oh me, I'm not. And they're like, you understood what we said. Oh my God, your Chinese is good. And you know, I'm just like, know, they're like, wow. They go crazy. So that's.

Matthew Lu (1:10:24)
It's just beautiful.

It's

the more you explain that your Chinese is not good, the more obsessed they will be with how good it is.

Julia Meyn (1:10:51)
Yeah.

And it's like, can, I understand this. I understand. Play the humble. I can play humble. I can play humble. But when I get back to the United States, my Chinese is perfect, guys. My Chinese is spectacular. And they'd be like, wow, it is.

Matthew Lu (1:10:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ so I kind of like rounding out our conversation here. ⁓ one of the last questions that like to ask is kind of about any advice or takeaways that you have for like the younger generation and maybe specifically like about this, this choice to like live abroad, and work abroad early on in your life. Like, how do you think this is?

Julia Meyn (1:11:30)
you

Matthew Lu (1:11:34)
transformative or maybe valuable for young people.

Julia Meyn (1:11:39)
Yeah, so I was thinking, know, my advice would be to like not let fear get in the way, you know, because for, know, like especially the fear of change and the fear of different, because before I came over, I actually talked to quite a few people and a lot of them said like, don't go to China. And you know, but there was something

Matthew Lu (1:11:55)
Mm.

Julia Meyn (1:12:07)
true to what I wanted out of life, that like, kind of like, hey, there's a reason why, like, you've always wanted to live abroad and didn't say what, where, and your dream came to you in the unexpected way, but it came to you. This is your opportunity. Like, even though it's scary and different and you don't have like, you have no idea, like,

this is what you've been working towards. So I would say to the younger generation, your dreams and what you aspire to become or to do might come to you unexpectedly, but trust that. Don't be afraid of change. Don't be afraid of different. Don't let fear hold you back. It's hard. Don't get me wrong, but just close your eyes and go.

Matthew Lu (1:12:37)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah, and definitely I think moving to a new country, like after school or whatever, it forces you to take on some fears. But at the same time, it's like, because you don't know anyone there, you get to start building yourself like fresh from the ground, and you get to build like a braver, more courageous version.

Susan Su (1:13:03)
Yeah, no.

Julia Meyn (1:13:25)
Mm-hmm,

and I would say like with that like you're gonna have all these fears and Then you'll arrive and then you'll realize maybe half of them are not even true It's like you're it was yourself trying to hold you back so kind of just You know be a little mindful of that because whatever you are picturing half of it's probably not even true

Susan Su (1:13:26)
Yeah.

Matthew Lu (1:13:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (1:13:49)
Yeah, no, I'm sure there's no one, the artist holding the pollution thing in the Olympics. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's a very, it's a very different world from here. Vacuum cleaning the air. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a, I China changes so fast as well. So literally something you might have seen, like a few years ago is it's, it would have evolved. And so it's, it's exciting to be

Julia Meyn (1:13:54)
I

Matthew Lu (1:13:56)
the yeah vacuum cleaning the air

Julia Meyn (1:14:00)
Yeah.

Matthew Lu (1:14:12)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Su (1:14:14)
growing along with a society that's also developing just as rapidly. And now is the time to do it in your early 20s when you have not tied down by a mortgage or anything like.

Matthew Lu (1:14:20)
facts.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:14:26)
No, exactly.

Because that was like one thing where it's like, I know for a fact that I can do this now. Like I have my responsibilities are to a level where it's like, I can take this opportunity. So like, this is the easiest it's ever going to be to take this opportunity. Why not take it? Even though everything is like, I'm scared, I could cry. It's like, okay, but just it's okay. You know, because also one thing that helped me is like,

People have done this before. I'm not the first person to move to China to do this job. So it's like, not, I'm not, you know, I'm not the first one.

Matthew Lu (1:15:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Su (1:15:01)
you

You're not the first person to do that wind

Matthew Lu (1:15:04)
You're

Susan Su (1:15:05)
sail design

Matthew Lu (1:15:05)
not doing the wind sails.

Susan Su (1:15:06)
that no other shipbuilding firm's done. Yeah, man.

Julia Meyn (1:15:07)
Yeah. So exactly.

So it's like putting things into perspective a little.

Susan Su (1:15:16)
For sure, for sure. Yeah, so I guess the one last thing that we'd to ask for our guests is typical of many different podcasts you might have listened to is for to give a recommendation. And one thing we like to do for liminal space here is that the guests will pick a category. So you get to pick the category and your recommendation in that category. So it could be like books or movies or I think one I think Josh tried to do like electronic devices or like appliances or something.

Matthew Lu (1:15:16)
for sure.

Julia Meyn (1:15:40)
Hmm.

Matthew Lu (1:15:43)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Susan Su (1:15:44)
like you pick

a category, your recommendation, and Matt and I, we have to also pick our recommendation in that category.

Matthew Lu (1:15:50)
We'll try our best. Please don't

Julia Meyn (1:15:53)
Okay.

Matthew Lu (1:15:54)
be

ship engineering related.

Susan Su (1:15:57)
Gosh pick your favorite ship. ⁓ the Titanic that's the only ship I know

Julia Meyn (1:16:00)
Mmm.

Matthew Lu (1:16:01)
The Canoe.

Julia Meyn (1:16:04)
Yeah, it's like, what's your favorite boat? No, no,

You know what? But I will, I think I have to make it somewhat maritime related. So you're going to maybe take your time. But I would say. The that my fit, the category is. Ocean slash boat related movie. OK, it's a movie and probably one of.

Susan Su (1:16:11)
Ugh.

Matthew Lu (1:16:11)
Mm-hmm. ⁓ Okay.

Mmm. Okay.

Susan Su (1:16:24)
Mmm.

Julia Meyn (1:16:26)
a movie that I don't think a lot of people have heard of. It's called, you know, Contiki. And it was like a true story that got made into a movie to essentially prove that this Polynesian island had people from, I think, Peru or Chile. And like through these different currents of wind and like water, were able to like sail from the west to or like east to west. Some crazy story.

Matthew Lu (1:16:34)
⁓

Mm-hmm.

Julia Meyn (1:16:55)
And so essentially

these four guys built a replica of this boat to like prove it and their journey. And it's a very interesting, cool boat maritime related movie.

Matthew Lu (1:17:06)
Mm.

Susan Su (1:17:11)
Very, very cool. guess Matt was so wowed that he had to take a moment there. Man. Gosh, I am... Alright, now I'm on the spot. I feel like...

Julia Meyn (1:17:16)
You

Yeah. You know,

like ocean, ocean, water, boat, movie.

Susan Su (1:17:26)
Ocean, water,

boat. That's my favorite. Okay. I'm going to be far less sophisticated, but I guess one of my favorite like Disney channel shows when I was a kid was Sweet Life on Deck. And so I guess that just came to mind because it's, yeah, it's, takes place on a ship. It's a cruise ship. Yeah. Yeah. So I believe there was a Sweet Life on Deck movie. So I will, I will go with that just because I, I can't think of like a. Sophisticated good enough example. So.

Julia Meyn (1:17:39)
Boat. It's a cruise ship.

Trust your gut, trust your instinct. There

Susan Su (1:17:56)
Yeah, no, I

Julia Meyn (1:17:56)
we go.

Susan Su (1:17:57)
did like that show a lot. Even though I don't think there was any, I mean, the only water you see is like the far away, like the scene of the boat on the water, the background, I don't think it was actually filmed anywhere near like a body of water, but that was, yeah, cool Disney show as a kid. ⁓ And...

Julia Meyn (1:18:07)
background.

I also grew up watching that. Not as much,

I think, as Sweet Life of Zack and Cody, but definitely like, I'm like, all right, let's also watch it.

Susan Su (1:18:29)
Yeah,

Matthew Lu (1:18:29)
All right. I think so it's been a while since I've watched the movie, but I watched it a few times. I think in college, it's the movie called Life of Pi. So it's about like the the this boy from India. I think he was working on a ship or something and then he has a very strange life. He gets like stranded on a ship with a tiger and they kind of have to learn how to deal with each other.

Julia Meyn (1:18:38)
⁓ yeah.

Susan Su (1:18:39)
Mmm.

Matthew Lu (1:18:56)
and make their peace and eventually find a way to survive. And they're kind of, you know, at sea just for a really long time. And it's like a movie where nothing really happens. But if you want it to be really deep, it can be really deep. And it's a visually striking movie. So I would recommend that people check it out. And it's also based off of a book which may also help connect some of the dots as well. So, yeah.

That's my rec.

Julia Meyn (1:19:23)
Yeah,

that's a good recommendation for sure.

Matthew Lu (1:19:25)
So yeah, thank you so much, Julia. It was, so much fun to learn about your life and your journey and your story. yeah, so rounding

Julia Meyn (1:19:32)
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Matthew Lu (1:19:34)
that's a wrap on today's episode of Liminal Space, where we navigate the thresholds of culture, identity, and experience. If our conversation resonated with you, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, or share your own story with us. We'd love to hear what you've discovered as well in the spaces in between. So join us next time as we continue to explore what it means to live in the liminal. Until then.

Keep searching for the insights that lie just beyond the obvious. See you guys next time.