From Oregon to Vietnam to China: Owen Sutter on Ethical Making, Art, and Life in Motion
Matthew Lu (00:25)
Welcome to Liminal Space, where we explore the thresholds of identity, culture, and experience. I am Matt Liu, one half of the hosting duo, and along with my friend, Susan, we've created this podcast for those who find themselves navigating the spaces in between, whether it's between cultures, worlds, or ideas. Each episode, we delve into the rich complexity of modern Chinese stories As told by
diaspora voices, third culture kids, and individuals who embody the bridge between China and the world and between tradition and innovation. Step into liminal space with us where we find meaning in the transitions, the gray areas, and the moments of becoming.
Susan Su (01:10)
Today we have the pleasure of introducing Owen Sutter, an Oregonian, if I pronounce that correctly, between Vietnam and China. He's an oil painter, Modo Nomad, and a new product development manager. So welcome to the show, Owen. So great to have you here today.
Matthew Lu (01:28)
Yeah, welcome dude.
Owen (01:30)
Thanks guys for having me. Yeah, really excited to talk with you and share my story a little bit.
Susan Su (01:35)
⁓ it'll be be very fun. before we go into your actual story, why don't you start off with the one or two sentences on just who you are? What are you working on now?
Owen (01:47)
Yeah, well, like you said, I'm from Oregon. I've lived in Asia for coming up on four years now. I spent a good three and a half years in Vietnam and have recently this year moved to Shenzhen, where back in Vietnam, I was working for like a bigger company in the global manufacturing space. And now I'm starting my own business and different industry backpacks. So yeah.
Matthew Lu (01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (02:11)
Awesome. So I guess before going back to your background then, can you elaborate a little bit more on the backpack business you're working on now?
Owen (02:19)
Yeah. Yeah. So when I was working in Vietnam, ⁓ for a bigger company, I was doing a lot of pricing for the, ⁓ products, basically stuff that's built in Asia and then get sold over in America. And, one of the things that was interesting to me was everything that goes into price. ⁓ people in America kind of just see as like, you see a high retail price and what I wanted to do with a product that's near and dear to my heart, like a travel backpack.
is to bring a more like transparent way of product pricing to the consumer. One that prioritizes both the people that make the product itself and also the people that buy the product. making sure that the people that make it get paid enough and get like produce it in good conditions, but also making sure that the people that buy it are spared outrageous retail markups.
Matthew Lu (03:08)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (03:14)
Yeah. So that was the motivation.
Matthew Lu (03:17)
Awesome.
Yeah, very cool, man. And so interestingly, it seems like you've spent most of your time after graduating from college in Asia, but that's also a pretty big leap. And like you and I, we didn't grow around, cosmopolitan large cities.
Owen (03:30)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lu (03:37)
and probably a lot of our friends back home have stayed behind and also made great lives for themselves. So kind of zooming out a little bit now, just kind of wondering what was your upbringing like, in the Pacific Northwest? How do you think that region or that environment has shaped you? And also any influences from your parents and, this unorthodox path that you decided to eventually take?
Owen (04:02)
Yeah. so when I was growing up in the Pacific Northwest, I, it's a wonderful place to like, live basically a lot of people love it. There's good nature. Like I grew up in Portland and was, was always taking like, you know, camping trips and going skiing and mountain biking, but I hadn't really seen the world. And so that was really what motivated me to come to Asia. I wanted to see a different culture. wanted to.
Matthew Lu (04:11)
Mm-hmm for sure
Mm-hmm.
Owen (04:30)
⁓ really what I wanted to do was when I graduated from college, I wanted to focus on the career, but also have those like travel experiences that you would typically have to get by like quitting a job for like a few months and traveling the world. So for me, it was really important to be able to do both at the same time, because I don't want to spend a bit of my life, like traveling and doing what I like to do. And then the rest of it kind of working. So it was very important to me to do both at the same time.
Matthew Lu (04:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (04:59)
And I
think for like influences, um, you know, when I was growing up, my mom was, uh, working for Nike and some of the sportswear companies in America, uh, in port, headquartered in Portland. And she was like going to Asia, doing textile sourcing, working with the factories in Asia. Um, uh, so I kind of had this idea of like, okay, you can go work abroad and go, um, do this, but I think living.
Matthew Lu (05:10)
Cool.
I see
Owen (05:29)
choosing to live in a different country versus just going on a business trip. There's a huge, there's a big different dynamic to that. And I really wanted to immerse myself in it. And when I got the opportunity to come to Vietnam, was, it was definitely a no brainer. So yeah.
Matthew Lu (05:40)
Mm-hmm.
Very cool. And so when you were growing up, did you always have a sense of what you wanted to do after graduating from college? Or were you more kind of just exploring while learning as you go? And what did you eventually study in college? And was it a good choice for you?
Owen (06:03)
Yeah, I, it's, kind of been figuring it out as it goes. I didn't have like a set path that I really wanted to go down. ⁓ when I entered college, I was interested in like microbiology because of a, like some high school classes and a high school teacher. So kind of the, the more science stuff like that, but I didn't end up doing that. I did a design and,
Matthew Lu (06:19)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (06:27)
business degree called design and innovation management. And kind of how I got to that was I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I figured let's do something that I'm like, let's take a natural like talent of mine. And I'm, I, I feel like I'm good at working with people and good at working with different types of people. And then let's also take a passion, which would be like art design.
Matthew Lu (06:41)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (06:52)
stuff like that and let's combine them. And there was this degree that was called Design and Innovation Management, which was at the time it was a new degree at my school, Oregon State University. And it was a feeder program for companies like Nike or like the advertising agencies that are in Portland. And when I graduated, I didn't quite know exactly what I was doing. And it was also COVID. So it was a strange time to graduate. And I wound up in a sales job, but
Matthew Lu (06:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Okay.
Right.
Owen (07:20)
And we, I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but it's all about like putting yourself in, in a place where there's more opportunity and like where there's like going to be more doors open. So, over time that led me to Asia and where I am now. but yeah, my background is kind of like, I wouldn't say that I've had a clear path on what I'm, what I want to do at any point. And I'm still, I think I'm only just now kind of figuring out.
Matthew Lu (07:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (07:44)
what I really like to do and what I'm good at. So yeah, it's a process.
Matthew Lu (07:48)
Awesome.
Yeah, for a lot of us too.
Susan Su (07:51)
Yeah, for sure.
think like it's crazy that they expect like 17 year olds to have like your whole life figured out and you're supposed to write a whole like BS, a whole college essay on that. but I think, yeah, everyone is definitely just faking it or well, over generalization, but we're a lot of us. Yeah, making it to different degrees. And I think
Matthew Lu (08:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
to different degrees. Yep.
Susan Su (08:15)
You've made a good point about graduating during COVID, because I think COVID really derailed so many people's carefully planned out trajectories. And it definitely did for me. And how was it for you graduating in the middle of COVID? And you said you landed the sales job. And how did that eventually bring you to Vietnam?
Owen (08:25)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think when a lot of people like I graduated 2020 and COVID, I think popped up in like January in the US on the radar, the collective radar. And I think by the time, by like spring term, we were basically like told to stay at home and no graduation. So yeah, COVID, I think I was just lucky. I felt lucky to have a job because we didn't know if the economy was going to crash and like
Matthew Lu (08:46)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (09:00)
there was gonna be like massive, I mean, like really disruptive. So yeah, I was lucky to have a job and it was a decent paying job too. So I felt good about that.
Matthew Lu (09:01)
Yeah, for sure.
Owen (09:12)
But yeah, basically when COVID was going on, I was working the sales job and a good experience on like the customer facing side, but I knew pretty quickly that life
like as it was at that point wasn't going to be getting me like the satisfaction that I wanted out of it. So I knew some changes were in order and the company had openings at like the headquarters in the US and also in Asia. And I was lucky in being able to interview for the Asia roles. But ⁓ yeah, I mean, it took time. And it wasn't
Matthew Lu (09:32)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (09:48)
the most direct way there. Initially, I was passed over for the Asia role. And it required me to text the manager back and say, Hey, like, really want to work over here, understand that that last role wasn't a fit. But are there any other roles? And so it took some self advocacy to of course, and yeah, kind of pushing through the obstacles to get over here. But there was also the whole the environmental conditions were right, because
Matthew Lu (09:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (10:16)
and Trump's first term he had imposed some tariffs on China. And the company I was working for is hugely in the US market. And they were trying to get manufacturing to Vietnam. there was additional need for people in Asia. And they really wanted like highly motivated, hardworking. I think maybe there was an element of like, let's get
Matthew Lu (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (10:42)
people with without like the most huge experience without the most like huge ask for salary. And let's get them sent over to Asia that are just going to like put a helmet on and run through a brick wall to solve some of these issues with localizing manufacturing to Vietnam. So the environmental conditions were right. Yeah. And I was in the right place too. So yeah.
Matthew Lu (10:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
yeah hustle
Susan Su (11:04)
That's really interesting to hear. I think a very persistent theme that we've seen with some of our podcast guests is that it's really a mix of the right conditions and also the right type of people to really, people who really will go out of their way to advocate for themselves to be placed in to be placed in that environment, Like we saw that with
Matthew Lu (11:19)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (11:26)
with Josh with his college admissions. We saw that with Julia also with trying to get herself to Asia when China first opened up post pandemic. it's a theme that I think it's very cool and definitely something that we like to see a lot of because that's where you really get that experience and that exposure.
Matthew Lu (11:48)
Yeah,
like ⁓ matching the internal conditions of like what you want at a certain point in your life, especially if you're looking for a change with the external conditions. I think that's how it happens, right? Yeah. ⁓
Owen (11:50)
Yeah.
Susan Su (12:03)
Yeah, I ⁓ think there's
Owen (12:03)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (12:04)
a Chinese idiom for this, which
I forgot. There is one. Yeah. yeah, so I guess my follow up on that, Owen, would be, okay, so you finally, after some advocacy, after the right conditions, you find yourself in Vietnam.
Matthew Lu (12:07)
Probably, probably, yeah.
Susan Su (12:23)
young person without a lot of experience there to just put on the helmet and like breakthrough walls. what were those first few weeks or months like? You've never been to Vietnam before, I assume. it's, yeah, tell us about like first landing in Asia.
Owen (12:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, without a doubt, the most exciting couple weeks of my life for sure. And I don't I'm not sure if it will ever be topped for that. ⁓ The first the first month in Vietnam felt like six, six months because, you know, when every experience is new, and you're meeting people from I mean, you know, Vietnam and Ho Chi Minh City has a lot of international people from all over the world. ⁓
Matthew Lu (12:47)
Mm-hmm. Dang.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (13:05)
And,
⁓ it's, it's a melting pot like that. so I was having tons of new experiences, meeting all sorts of new people. I was starting the new job, which was challenging in itself. when I got to Vietnam, I always joke, I didn't know how to order a coffee or cross the street because you have to like go through all the motorbikes when you cross the street. and it's just a different dynamic to crossing the street anywhere else.
Matthew Lu (13:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's intimidating.
Susan Su (13:26)
Mmm, yeah.
Owen (13:29)
CB Yeah, mean, Susan, it was the most exciting thing I could ever recommend. It's extremely challenging, but if you go at it with an open mind and I think a good heart and with an open smile, good things happen. So yeah, the first month felt like at least six months, and the first year felt way longer than a year. And it wasn't
Matthew Lu (13:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (13:56)
eventually like the honeymoon phase ran out right and it was challenging and I was like at times I did feel alone and sometimes the work was really really hard and like what am I doing but yeah worth it.
Matthew Lu (14:05)
Mm-hmm.
For sure. Yeah, I think that's something we can all attest to and especially ⁓ some of our previous guests as well. Just like, you know, moving to a completely different country, especially in your twenties and building a new life from nothing, from scratch, kind of forces you to like grow and mature at a speed like much faster than a lot of people, you know, who may be selected and more traditional.
Owen (14:13)
Yeah, I think that's a big deal.
building in the new day.
Matthew Lu (14:38)
lifestyle back home. So that makes sense.
Owen (14:40)
Yeah. I think I think there's a Yeah,
I think there's a good dynamic with like, challenge and comfort, right? If you're if you're feeling really comfortable, and you're not challenged, and you're not growing. And I it's probably talked about a lot. But I really believe in that. So yeah, yeah.
Matthew Lu (14:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You're right. Yeah. Exactly.
You can't have both things like simultaneously. At least I don't think humans have figured out how to do that quite yet. Maybe with Neuralink, you just download like hardship into your brain and be like, yeah, I'm growing, but like I'm on my nice couch at home, know, sipping whiskey. So yeah, I was also just wondering like, you know, were some
Owen (15:13)
Yeah.
Susan Su (15:16)
Where's the fun in that though?
Owen (15:17)
I don't think we want to
Matthew Lu (15:23)
instances that you remember from your years in Vietnam, either really jarring and like, ⁓ you know, life could be so different, or anything that you felt was really rewarding, or unexpected. Any moments?
Owen (15:38)
Yeah,
a whole lot.
I think what comes to mind first is like, love motorcycle trips and I would Vietnam opened up to me when I jumped on a motorcycle for the first time and started doing like just going around the countryside and meeting people in Vietnam. the especially in I mean all of Vietnam, but especially in the Mekong Delta region, south of Ho Chi Minh City. ⁓ When I would go on trips there, I was astounded by how
Matthew Lu (15:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (16:08)
friendly and welcoming the people were and how I think in America, it's easy to be caught up in career and job and like, you need to be I get on myself really hard about like, what is my like, social net worth through like maybe my job or whatever, right. ⁓ But people in Vietnam, especially in like the rural countryside are
Matthew Lu (16:28)
Yeah.
Owen (16:33)
You have some fruit, you have coffee, you have some beer and some food and you have your family and you have good, beautiful, sunny weather. And the people are incredibly warm and welcoming and friendly and going through Vietnam and like the motorbike has, it's just like a different way of life that makes me think sometimes we don't have it right where, where we're from necessarily. So yeah, I mean, there's tons, tons of experiences from Vietnam that
Matthew Lu (16:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (17:03)
have changed the way I think about the world. Like in Asia, family is so important. And I think I was talking with someone last night about this. think in America, is not as, we're too individualistic in America and family in Asia, although family can have its problems in Asia too. ⁓ I come from America so that individualism in America, see.
Matthew Lu (17:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Owen (17:29)
as a problem and maybe we need to be more focused on family in America. So, yeah.
Matthew Lu (17:33)
Yeah.
Definitely, you know, that's something I've also been thinking about a little bit recently ⁓ is like this dichotomy between wanting to feel connected and then also like needing isolation or needing to be by yourself and that I think it maps nicely onto like individuality versus, you know collective or you know family oriented Existences, right and again, like you can't have both like you're always just trying to you know struggle to find some kind of balance in between
Owen (17:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (18:03)
But I think perhaps the pursuit of the balance is more meaningful for you our lives than just sitting at one extreme or another right Very cool and so In in Vietnam
Owen (18:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (18:19)
What were some, I guess, observations that you made that eventually kind of influenced the goals or the things that you wanted to do later on? Was it related to kind of your work with the factories or anything like that
Owen (18:35)
Yeah, I think with the current like backpack project that I'm working on and the idea to make a really transparent price, ⁓ really transparent business with both a pricing model for product and also like a supply chain model with sourcing. That has come because I've spent a lot of time in factories in Vietnam. And even if something certified like, like, well, I mean, if you're an international company doing business in
Matthew Lu (18:45)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (19:00)
Vietnam or China, from what I understand, there's a lot of regulations and certifications and audits that you need to have. ⁓ So even if you're a fact like a, like even if it's like a Nike, making sure that it produces out like a factory that is like certified and regulated, it still might be just massive labor might be contracted out and
Matthew Lu (19:07)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (19:24)
that's not like a work environment, even if it's like certified, regulated and audited and like approved. That's maybe not a work environment that I want my like stuff coming from. Like if, if we're talking about like ethical manufacturing, maybe something that's a little bit smaller, still certified and regulated and audited, but a work environment that's like not
Matthew Lu (19:35)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (19:48)
dissimilar to an office worker working at their job where there's set amount of like a decent amount of hours per day, decent working conditions and also like a decent like social work situation where it's not just like a massive factory floor of stuff. So ⁓ yeah, and obviously like wages are a lot less in ⁓ Asia. That's why a lot of the world manufacturers here. ⁓
Matthew Lu (20:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (20:17)
That's the
reality right now. But that doesn't mean that the working conditions have to be like, like you're just part of the machine. So with the back, and this doesn't work for all industries, like you especially stuff with huge volume, you just need massive factories for sure. But when I was making the backpack ⁓ brand, I really wanted to partner with a factory that I felt good about, where like the people I can tell are having it like
Matthew Lu (20:25)
bright.
Owen (20:41)
it's it's a job. It's still a job, but it's a it's a decent job where the conditions are good. And it's like, not that much different from if you go to the office and work at a cubicle, like five days a week or something like that. So yeah, I think my time working in Vietnam has kind of made me think about what is truly like, decent manufacturing and Asia has a Asia has a huge part to play for manufacturing, like so much of the supply chain is here. So I think and also like,
Matthew Lu (20:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
for sure.
Owen (21:11)
unless we want to be paying a lot of stuff, a lot of money for consumer goods in the US, then we'll have to continue producing stuff in like countries with lower wages. And that's okay. wait, like work brings like Vietnam's economy is great. And people are making more money than they have been before because of the investment there. But it's how does it make how do how can we make sure that the factories and like
Matthew Lu (21:25)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (21:36)
the jobs are like decent jobs and like the workers just don't feel like they're part of a machine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (21:43)
Yeah, definitely. It's very important.
Susan Su (21:44)
Oh, exactly.
And yeah, it definitely resonates, especially also coming from a supply chain background. think being out on the ground, seeing the factories yourselves and interacting with the people there, it really exposed you to so much of their daily lives and what kinds of work they might find meaningful. And also, unfortunately, like what are some terrible conditions that people can be exposed to just because of the current market.
Matthew Lu (22:10)
Yeah.
Susan Su (22:13)
out there and globalization with this pros and cons. it's really cool that you've been able to integrate those perspectives into what you're working on now. I guess back to then when you were just starting out in Vietnam with your first company, what kind of... Can you tell us a little bit more about your job then? How did you first get your... ⁓
Owen (22:26)
Yeah.
Susan Su (22:39)
get your exposure to to manufacturing and supply chain. What was it like at first to go into these factories and engaging with the workers through your job?
Owen (22:48)
Yeah, I'm well, I was working as a new product development manager for a power tool company that the company owns the brands, Milwaukee power tools, Ryobi power tools, AEG, I was doing product development for Ryobi power tools and the outdoor stuff. like lawnmowers, snow throwers. Yeah, when I first started, it was pretty impressive. I
Matthew Lu (23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (23:13)
hadn't been to so I came first to Vietnam. And I saw what they were trying to set up in Vietnam. I hadn't been to China, it took me about a year, year and a half to go to China initially. So for a while Vietnam manufacturing was all I knew I didn't know the scale and the like proficiency of manufacturing in China. But what I found in Vietnam was like, you know, there's a thousands of people involved with any
Matthew Lu (23:16)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (23:39)
any project and it the supply chain is truly global. if you want a if you want this pen made, there's someone who designs it. There's somebody that makes the tooling for it. Probably in some sub supplier somewhere in China or Vietnam. There's people that man the machine while the plastics being injected. There's people that do the quality check. There's people that are in charge of the sourcing the
the shipping. So it was quite interesting for me to put a face and name to the people that have been basically involved with building these power tools that I was selling that I had been selling in the US. And what I found was that a lot of these, mean, Vietnam had, I'll talk about it a fair bit, but Vietnam has a wonderful, like friendly, the people of Vietnam have a wonderful friendliness to them that
When I was working in Vietnam, was like, my gosh, everyone's just so amazing. That's like personality is just so good. Who's working on this stuff. And, yeah, I mean, it really, it really kind of humanized everything for me. I was the, the, one of the reasons why I came to Asia was to learn more about the global economy and how this side of the global economy works. And it was, just incredibly cool to see how
Matthew Lu (24:39)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (24:57)
We humanity produces all this stuff and sells it and yeah, really cool to get really interesting to see this side of the economy for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (25:07)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (25:10)
I know it must have been such such great exposure, especially. I think most people who develop products, might not know what goes on inside like a factory in China. But in Vietnam, especially imagine the ecosystem is more it's going to be there can be smaller factories, more grassroots. It's going to be a completely different, different working culture. And that's it's very cool that you got to just see all of that such an early age, like firsthand.
Owen (25:37)
Yeah,
I, yeah, I say this a fair bit to like friends in conversation. But like, when you're trying to move supply chain, and I think it's relevant for all the tariff and geopolitical discussions that are going on right now, like, when you're trying to move supply chain from one country to another, for example, like if we were trying to source motors in Vietnam, right?
Matthew Lu (25:38)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (26:01)
And you needed to have the motor come from Vietnam to make up the substantial transformation that the US tariff code required, right? ⁓ Vietnam has a lot of experience making t-shirts. They don't have as much experience making motors. there's a few companies that do make motors in Vietnam, but not for anywhere near as long or at the capacity or quality as the, you know, probably 200 companies that are in China do. So
Matthew Lu (26:10)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (26:28)
you're gonna there's like the whole battle over like cost quality and ⁓ for like fulfillment lead times that go into moving manufacturing from China to Vietnam. So we were in the thick of that for like, figuring out how to make stuff in Vietnam at the same quality at a lower cost. Then then we were doing in China. So yeah, it was interesting. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (26:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (26:51)
Yeah, wow,
that must have been very interesting indeed. I've heard so many stories of people trying to diversify their supply chains, like moving to places in Southeast Asia. It's one thing to find a factory who can make the thing, but it's another to set up all the other infrastructure. You need the roads to delivery, the logistics capacity, all the sub suppliers downstream, the raw materials. ⁓
Matthew Lu (27:02)
Yeah. Does it usually go well?
Owen (27:07)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (27:09)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (27:19)
It's an entire supply chain infrastructure that is challenging to replicate, would say.
Matthew Lu (27:27)
I'm also really curious,
mean, when people move from China or any other country to like Vietnam or some other Southeastern ⁓ Asian country for manufacturing, the culture of management and collaboration also changes, right? So I wonder if you guys have seen any interesting
differences between different management styles and how that also makes it more difficult to actually, export these or set up these new manufacturing hubs.
Owen (27:59)
Yeah, I think culturally it's a huge difference between China between any country, right? ⁓ Yeah, it's just from my perspective, as an American being a foreigner and both working with teams in Vietnam and China and Hong Kong. But yeah, of course, there's big differences. I think Vietnam the experience that it's gaining
Matthew Lu (28:05)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (28:20)
obviously showed China, like innately had like a process of doing things that was really fast, really efficient, high quality, low cost, Whereas Vietnam, like if you need to figure things out, and you don't necessarily know the process, you don't necessarily have 20 to 30 years of experience doing like root cause analysis and
problem solving for consumer electronics, it's going to take you two to five, like two to five times longer to solve the issue than like a engineer in in China might, right? There's also like, I think Vietnam, one of the things that I think is interesting about Vietnam is I think the the urge to call out like, seniors or like ⁓
Matthew Lu (28:49)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (29:03)
people like the boss is a little bit more restrained in Vietnam than maybe even and thing in China, it's also restrained. But as coming from like the American side, it's like if something's wrong, even if it's the boss, you call that you call that person out, right? The boss needs to boss always needs to be better. So yeah, I think working in that environment, it was interesting to see because the problems get solved.
Matthew Lu (29:05)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Susan Su (29:17)
yeah.
Matthew Lu (29:17)
Exactly, yeah.
Okay.
That's tough.
Owen (29:31)
slower, I would say because you don't you don't confront the problems head on. You look for ways around the problem rather than solving it. And I think in Vietnam, that was really what some of the value that like, we were able to provide by going to Vietnam and being like, Okay, these are the these are the problems. Let's systemically solve the problems and then move on from there rather than trying to find a way around the problem. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (29:33)
Hmm.
Okay
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Susan Su (29:58)
Yeah,
Matthew Lu (29:58)
Yeah.
Susan Su (29:59)
I echo that. think even that's one thing I also experience when working directly with Chinese suppliers too. And I think that that probably just has to do with Asian culture in general in this mentality. Yeah, yeah, like don't speak out to speak out against authority that a lot of us have been taught. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (30:13)
Yeah, Confucianism maybe? Probably? No.
Yeah, know your role in the hierarchy.
Susan Su (30:27)
But
if I may speak to your previous question, Matt, just before you pivot, but I also like, I've never worked directly with Vietnamese suppliers. I've only heard more so like secondhand accounts, but I think in terms of culture, involution is definitely stronger in China where you have the 996. Like if you message a supplier like 2 a.m., they will always respond.
Matthew Lu (30:31)
Yeah.
Okay.
Susan Su (30:50)
they will respond in like five
Owen (30:50)
Thank
Matthew Lu (30:51)
Yeah.
Susan Su (30:52)
minutes. it's, think people in Vietnam tend to have more overwork life balance, which I think, I think that's the way it should be, honestly. Like if we were going to be on the conversation of like good working conditions, I think workers should have good work life balance and enjoy their lives and not be on call for, for me, like at 2 a.m. their time. So it's like, but I know that that's sometimes been a complaint of like,
Matthew Lu (30:59)
Okay, I see
Yeah.
Susan Su (31:18)
other people like, they're not as efficient in some ways. But I think that's just like a greater conversation to be had on like, what does it mean to like, to like, yeah, yeah, exactly. But also build like your your own like, human happiness. And at the Graster's level. So that's, that's my my two cents. over to go on.
Matthew Lu (31:22)
Right.
for sure succeed as a nation, right, or prosper civilization.
For sure.
Yeah, awesome. Very
And that also reminds me of our conversation with Josh. When he was talking about how just like, when you look at China manufacturing, he says that a lot of Chinese people have this mentality where they want to fight for a better future. Like when you're fighting, you don't necessarily think about like work life balance, right?
Owen (31:42)
Yeah, I agree.
Matthew Lu (32:02)
You're kind of thinking about what do I need to do now to secure better prospects or a better situation for myself and my family in the future. And that's, that's probably like a distinction where people in Vietnam, they don't really see working as like a collective fight for like better economic conditions in the future. Right. Would you, would you say so or?
Owen (32:27)
Maybe.
I mean, I'm not I'm not sure we should get someone from Vietnam on the pod. But ⁓ I would say Vietnam has had to fight. Vietnam has had to fight for a whole lot, right? ⁓ Just like China has. But
Matthew Lu (32:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Susan Su (32:33)
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Lu (32:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Owen (32:42)
yeah, Susan, definitely. One thing I respect a lot about Vietnam is that people love to go like in the morning, coffee culture, people just have a coffee, watch the watch the cars go by.
Matthew Lu (32:52)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (32:53)
Yeah.
Owen (32:55)
In the evening, people have the beer, watch the cars go by, maybe at lunch, both. So I really respect that bit about Vietnam. And yeah, I think Matt, it's, yeah, it's less efficient, but maybe it doesn't need to be efficient to begin with, maybe the beer on the sidewalk is worth it. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (32:59)
Mmm.
Mm. Right.
Susan Su (33:10)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lu (33:14)
for sure. ⁓
Susan Su (33:15)
Yeah,
sometimes that's more important than someone's toy on the other side of the world, you know, like.
Owen (33:21)
100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Su (33:23)
you
Matthew Lu (33:27)
What
are your, I'm also curious, like having lived in Vietnam for like almost three years, is it? Three, three and a half years.
Owen (33:36)
Yeah, yeah, three and a half. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (33:39)
It seems like these days, Vietnam as a country is kind of on the up and coming. I was just wondering what your take is on kind of where they're at in terms of developing and what do you think lies ahead for the Vietnamese as a nation
Owen (34:01)
Yeah, I'm an outsider. But I'm really hopeful for Vietnam. I think Vietnam has a lot to give the world with like its energy for life. The there's like a lot of really cool stuff that's happening in Vietnam from like the social scene to the tech scene. There's a lot of really cool, smaller startups that are that
have found homes in Vietnam that are trying cool things. The city culture is vibrant. The history is interesting. The diaspora of Vietnamese around the world brings back cultures from Europe, from America. Yeah, I'm really hopeful for Vietnam. think there's the government has been doing some
Matthew Lu (34:25)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (34:44)
steps like the infrastructure needs to improve very quickly. I think I hope businesses will continue to find it attractive. think the education is improving there. Yeah, I'm really hopeful for Vietnam. think even beyond just like economic production hub, think culturally Vietnam has a lot to share with the world and it already does through like food and stuff.
Matthew Lu (34:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Food. Right. Yep.
Owen (35:08)
Yeah, just just the overall attitude on life in Vietnam is really something I've benefited from and enjoy. So yeah, yeah, I like Vietnam. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (35:16)
Mm-hmm.
Awesome.
Susan Su (35:19)
Yeah, that's good to hear.
And yeah, I'm going to pivot away from putting you on the spot for like philosophical questions like, like such I'm sure that was, that was, that was a tough one to answer, probably. But I guess now more so on like your, own personal experiences then we talked a lot about your work there, what you saw in terms of like the working culture and conditions.
Owen (35:23)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (35:28)
Ha
Owen (35:35)
No, it's okay.
Matthew Lu (35:37)
haha
Susan Su (35:46)
But what about for you socially? you have, was it like making new friends at first? You didn't speak the language? Did you have any people you knew from work then that showed you around? Like, how did you develop your community while you were there?
Owen (36:01)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whenever you go to a new place, whether it's going to university for the first time or moving cities for a job or moving countries and continents like I did, I think it's really beneficial if you get involved in organizations, right? So I had my work, like my company that had a few other foreigners working there. So they kind of showed me around initially.
but eventually you need to make more than work friends and anything can bring that to you. You just need to find the right group. And I found it through soccer. Initially, I play a lot of football or soccer. So I found a really good group of guys that ⁓ play every week. I also was at some points I was playing in like three different teams. And then also Saigon has good nightlife so you can go out and meet
Matthew Lu (36:50)
Wow.
Owen (36:54)
meet people that way. I think as long as you're like, outgoing, friendly, and just you've got stuff going on in your life that whether it's like a trip, or like, you know, you're you're working on something, even if it's not a job, even if you're working on something that you're just passionate about, like, and you can say, Hey, I'm building this, I'm working on this, I'm really passionate about this, then
Matthew Lu (37:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Owen (37:18)
people gravitate towards that and you you meet people and you pick up people and sometimes you build the group yourself and sometimes you join in on a group and the world kind of expands naturally if you're willing to put yourself out there I found and Vietnam it actually took time for me in Vietnam to do that. I think going anywhere it takes at least eight months maybe even a year or more to really
Matthew Lu (37:33)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (37:43)
establish a network in a new place because good friends don't just happen overnight. Like making good friends and feeling connected with people takes like work and months of relationship, right. So now some of my friends that I made in Vietnam. Yeah, yeah. Some of my friends in Vietnam, both the work friends and also friends I made along the way are absolutely some of my like friends just just as a
Matthew Lu (37:55)
Mm-hmm. Sustained effort.
Owen (38:10)
close to me as some of my friends from college or even before college. So yeah.
Susan Su (38:14)
Yeah, no, I, yeah, the whole eight months thing that is for real. takes time to cultivate community and yeah, especially new city, new cultural norms. And I'm also curious, how, I guess, how many of your friends, like what percentage would you say would be like, are like local versus like expats? I think it's very easy to get like, just get caught in the expat bubble and
Matthew Lu (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (38:40)
whenever you're in a new place. And one thing I personally am very intentional about doing is like making local friends. it was easier for me because I spoke Chinese, but yeah, yeah. But like as a white dude from Portland, like what was the, did you, you able to find local friends? How was, how was that like?
Matthew Lu (38:48)
Mm-hmm. Speak the language. Yeah.
Owen (38:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, Vietnam and especially Saigon, you're gonna have a lot more. It's a smaller country, smaller city than Shenzhen, China. And there's a lot more people that are Vietnamese that come back to live in Vietnam that are like from America or Europe, right. So I would say a good I had different I had different friends. had my work friends who were mostly like me.
Um, I had friends that were VQ from, um, abroad that came back to live in Vietnam. Um, that are culturally both, right. Um, and then I also had, I played on a soccer team with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's VQ. Um, yeah.
Matthew Lu (39:33)
Mm-hmm.
It's called Viet Cue.
What does that stand for?
Interesting.
Owen (39:49)
I think like overseas
Vietnamese. Yeah, I should know but I don't. ⁓ But yeah, ⁓
Matthew Lu (39:52)
Okay, no worries
Owen (39:56)
Yeah, I also had friends from work that were local friends and still still very close with them and had worked soccer team. So I was playing with like the local team on the outskirts of the city. But yeah, I Susan, I'm the same. try to like I'm not living in Asia to hang out with people necessarily from America.
Matthew Lu (40:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Owen (40:17)
So yeah,
it was really important for me to make friends with a wide range of people and backgrounds. Yeah, important.
Matthew Lu (40:25)
Yep, I hear you. Because I moved to Shanghai like three months ago. And in Shanghai, it's really easy to just kind of move into the foreigners bubble. But before that, I was in Beijing. in like Beijing is a place where the foreigners become more and more Chinese instead of the other way around. So you don't really have a choice. But I think that that was good for that was good for me for sure. If I went to Shanghai as my first
Owen (40:31)
Yeah.
Susan Su (40:42)
yeah, for sure.
Owen (40:43)
Yeah.
That's funny.
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (40:53)
as my first city after graduating from college, I think I'd be very much enticed to kind of find my own little like Americanized bubble. Yeah.
Owen (41:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, when I when I was in Vietnam, I my my first month I was in a company apartment. And then I took a leap and went and lived in like district one and like then ⁓ Tandon and like, Phu Nhung and like the areas that like some foreigners live but not that many. And I lived kind of in like local neighborhoods. And my my idea was I feel so uncomfortable in the city. Like I feel like everyone's looking at me.
Matthew Lu (41:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. ⁓
Owen (41:31)
I just want to immerse myself in
it to the point where I don't feel uncomfortable anymore. And I don't want to stay in the I don't want to stay in the expat zone. So for me, that was really important because ⁓ my gosh, even in my neighborhood, like, I would feel uncomfortable. But eventually I made friends with the like my neighbors and just like normal people basically living like around and ⁓
Matthew Lu (41:37)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (41:57)
kind
of got a sense for what Vietnam was like what who Saigonese were and kind of putting myself in that uncomfortable situation. I was challenged and I grew and now now like I mean I have my local even back in Vietnam. I'm in China now right but I have my like local fruit seller that I know that I have like a personal relationship with it like the fruit at the market have my barber like
Matthew Lu (42:02)
Yeah
Yeah.
Susan Su (42:20)
Thank ⁓
Owen (42:22)
in the back alley. And it's a cool to feel even though I'm not of the of that community. It it it's very it makes me feel good to know that like, I kind of know the community a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (42:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you have a place in the neighborhood, right? Even if it's a temporary, it's still, it's real, you know, while it's going on. It's very cool. ⁓ so I wanted to kind of pivot a little bit to, now, where you're living in Shenzhen, right? So, what led, I guess, to your, your, ⁓ your move from Vietnam to China and how has it been so far?
Owen (42:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So my girlfriend, she moved to Shenzhen. We met in Vietnam. She is she was in Shenzhen for about a year and I was trying to move here with my company, but that wasn't working out because Vietnam is where a lot of stuff goes. ⁓ So and I had spent enough time in Vietnam, both at my company and in the country where I was feeling very comfortable and not challenged and
Matthew Lu (43:22)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (43:30)
⁓ I also wanted to prioritize and invest more in my relationship, ⁓ with my girlfriend. So, ⁓ quit my job about seven months ago, moved, moved countries to prioritize, my, like my relationship and kind of big leap of faith because for me, having a stable job has always been, I mean, I've always worked when I was in like high school, I was roofing, worked in Alaska.
Matthew Lu (43:38)
Yep, respect.
Mmm.
Owen (43:57)
doing some fish stuff. ⁓ And have always had the job. Yeah, have always had the job. And so quitting the job and taking a leap of faith and like, you know, trusting things would work out was huge, huge challenge for me. I wavered on it for a while. But eventually, eventually I made the leap quit move to Shenzhen. And I basically haven't been working for seven months now.
Matthew Lu (43:59)
That's crazy.
Yeah.
Owen (44:25)
But I've been doing a lot of other stuff. When you're freed of a nine to five, or in Vietnam it was more of like an eight to six 30 type of setup that I was working. Yeah, it was long. But yeah, basically I have more time now. So I've been investing in like painting, making friends in Shenzhen.
Matthew Lu (44:25)
Mm-hmm.
eight to six.
Owen (44:48)
⁓ language learning. So I've been taking three Chinese classes a week with a teacher. And I've started, yeah, I've, yeah, I've started my own business. So I think sometimes like, you know, the don't quit your day job while you're working on your side project advice, actually wasn't working for me because when I was sticking with my day job and keeping that like monthly paycheck of stability, it wasn't encouraging me to
Matthew Lu (44:53)
Wow, that's intense.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yeah.
Owen (45:15)
go in the direction both geographically and professionally that I needed to. So lot of lessons taken from that for me.
Matthew Lu (45:24)
Yeah, definitely. And also a lot of times if your day job is super taxing, whether that's physically or on the mind, it takes a lot of your energy and time. You definitely don't want to be thinking about, like, what is my side hustle going to be? Or like, how can I, you know, spend more time on my hobby or connecting my interests with my strengths? Like after you're off work, right? I think, you know, I think about
Owen (45:48)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lu (45:50)
all of my friends who work in big companies, there are not a lot of them who still want to talk about all of this other stuff after work, right? They're kind of just, they're clocked out, just want to relax. And so, yeah, that definitely makes sense. And so something, yeah, something that came up a lot earlier in our conversation.
Owen (46:06)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (46:10)
but I'm also curious to learn a little bit more about is kind of your journey with art. So we were talking a little bit about how oil painting and art actually helps you find community in a really strange and miraculous way almost in Shenzhen. And so I was just wondering if you could share a little bit about that experience and also the role that art has had in your life so far, because we haven't
Owen (46:29)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (46:40)
really been able to talk about it and seems like it's kind of separate from your work, but I wonder if it really is or not really.
Owen (46:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's separate. I don't think I've sold anything for art. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (46:51)
Okay.
Susan Su (46:52)
You can try, I'm sure it will sell
well.
Matthew Lu (46:55)
I'll help you sell them. I'll help you sell them in our group.
Owen (46:56)
yeah.
Yeah, me and
me and Heather, actually we actually have a each we have one painting each in a studio here in Shenzhen, Aaron a gallery. So I think Susan, you've been but yeah, I mean, basically, art for me, I've always done it. My mom really encouraged me and my dad ⁓ to paint to draw. I don't quite know why I like it. But there's something about like, there's something I think calming maybe about it.
Matthew Lu (47:16)
Mmm.
Owen (47:25)
And I also like the idea of creating like beautiful things. ⁓ I often sketch nature and I often paint nature because nature to me is like if you see a nice sunset or you see like a cool tree or like a nice mountain or cliff that is beautiful and painting it or sketching it you have to soak in all these like
Matthew Lu (47:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (47:50)
minute details of that beautiful scene and recreate it. I think art for me helps me appreciate nature more or a scene or like our world. I think art helps me appreciate our world more. So yeah, when I came to Shenzhen, just started painting a lot because I had more free time and it's been it's been good sense working on my creative voice. I think that's something that
Matthew Lu (47:52)
⁓ I see.
Mmm.
Very cool.
Owen (48:14)
We should all nurture, but we often don't have time to, and now that I do, I am.
Matthew Lu (48:19)
preach. Yeah, for sure. So it almost sounds like painting is, it's kind of like a form of like mindfulness exercise in a way, because you have to force yourself to kind of look at all the details that you would usually maybe just gloss over. ⁓ Would you say that that's kind of yeah, what what's like?
Owen (48:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't think there's like a train of thoughts of like, me processing things like running in the background of my mind. Because when you're painting, you're really thinking about okay, like color matching and like making sure like the shapes and the values are coming out on the canvas in the right way. But maybe there is something subconscious about it where your mind is like in a flow state a little bit. And yeah,
Matthew Lu (48:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Owen (49:05)
Painting is great. Yeah.
Susan Su (49:07)
Yeah, I discovered that when I visited your studio, in Daphan. It was so therapeutic. think it was like four hours to not look at my phone once. It just like standing there. And then it was really nice. And after that, literally, I was so tempted to get my own supplies and just start painting in my apartment. that couldn't happen in Shenzhen. But now that I'm like
Matthew Lu (49:19)
Mmm.
Owen (49:20)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (49:29)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (49:33)
mostly set up here in Cambridge. I have a bunch of supplies in my Amazon cart right now that I've been trying to... Yeah, I do want to get into it. I should, I should. It's expensive. It's expensive here. I remember we were getting the canvases in Dafin and then the lady was like, yeah, these are like, we bought them for like five R &B.
Matthew Lu (49:39)
Mmm.
do it right now.
Owen (49:46)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (49:47)
after our conversation.
Owen (49:50)
It's ex-
Matthew Lu (49:56)
Mmm.
Susan Su (49:56)
So that's like 70 cents. And she was like, oh yeah, we sell these for five USD, like two Americans and it's like 10 X the price. yeah, yeah, no, it's it's or a seven X, but yeah, it's all like, it's very the margins and the tariffs and the all that that costs buckles in. But yeah, no, that's, was a great experience that day.
Owen (49:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Lu (50:06)
It's that bad? That's crazy. 10, 10x. Well.
Owen (50:07)
It's ridiculous. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (50:17)
Hmm, I see.
Owen (50:22)
Yeah.
Susan Su (50:26)
And I guess you should share the story of how you ended up with your own oil painting studio in Shenzhen. I think that's a pretty good story.
Owen (50:26)
Yeah, I'm glad you could come. Yeah.
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (50:37)
Ha
Owen (50:38)
Yeah, well, it's it's not mine. I share it and pay rent to my friend who whose family owns it. ⁓ It's in this massive oil painting village. That's quite famous in China, I believe, but maybe not so famous outside of China. Basically, a neighborhood and everyone's a painter. There's paintings everywhere. Some are good. Some are like
Matthew Lu (50:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (51:03)
copies. Others are originals and they sell for thousands and thousands of dollars. I was since I like painting, I was walking around there one time shortly after I had moved to China. And I bought a cup from this guy. And he spoke to me a little bit in English. And he seemed fine at English. And I was very encouraging of him speaking English to me because I didn't hear it that much in China.
Matthew Lu (51:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (51:27)
at that time. this is like a few months ago. And he was shy at speaking English. He was really nervous to speak English with me. But I was really encouraging to him without even knowing it. And he, guess, asked, we got we chats and my we chat profile is me holding a massive fish in Bali.
And he loves to fish. It's like his two passions in life are fishing and painting. And so we went fishing and then he asked if I paint. I said I do. And he said, do you want to come to the studio and paint? So I started doing that. And now this guy's his name is Suga. He's like my probably my best friend here in China that I've made.
Matthew Lu (51:54)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (52:09)
And yeah, professional artist, his whole family's an artist, they've got a big gallery in Daffan. And I go there a couple times a week to paint. He's the ultimate artist, like, if your dad's an artist, your mom's an artist, and you're an artist. I mean, all he knows is art. So his he does like modern kind of like, abstract art, sells it to sells a lot of it. And ⁓
Matthew Lu (52:09)
Aww.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (52:33)
Yeah, he's the true creative voice. Like he'll look at my stuff and he'll go, it's good needs to be bigger and more more crazy, more crazy, like make it more crazy. But yeah, really. Yeah, really encouraging, really good guy. So yeah, I just luck. mean, as everything is a bit of luck, right. So I wandered into his studio, treated
Matthew Lu (52:43)
Ha ha ha.
like it, it's very constructive.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (53:01)
I think I treated him with compassion and understanding and, maybe the English isn't perfect, but I still know what's going on and good for trying. I can respect that and things opened up after that. yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (53:10)
Yeah.
That's a really
Susan Su (53:18)
Yeah
Matthew Lu (53:18)
beautiful, simple story, actually. Yeah.
Susan Su (53:21)
And it's, yeah, I think that's, that's, that seems to happen to you a lot. and I think like, yeah, from like what you've been telling us from from Vietnam and China, I think you really just like run into people and you befriend them. And then, you have like a cool new hobby with some cool new friends now. And I think that's a, that's a really great mentality to have like, this open mindedness, this this curiosity and
Owen (53:31)
Yeah.
Susan Su (53:48)
Yeah, so that certainly takes you places and fosters some great connections. So kind of relating this back to just your journey in China so far, like you said, you've been here for like seven months-ish. And you mentioned earlier that it takes like eight months to really fully form a community.
Owen (53:57)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (54:08)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (54:13)
in a new place. how has that been like in ⁓ Shenzhen and especially compared to Vietnam because I know Shenzhen has that notorious reputation of being such a hustle city. Everyone is already always working. what were ⁓ some, what was it like for you? were some culture shocks from moving here? ⁓ How has building community been?
Owen (54:33)
Yeah. Big, have a lot to answer that question with Susan. Yeah, Shenzhen. I mean, I think Josh talked about it a fair bit. Shenzhen is really cool. It's also a brand new city. It's a city of 17 million. So you don't have necessarily like the established institutions and like hangouts and like culture that's built up that I really enjoyed in Vietnam.
Matthew Lu (54:38)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (54:59)
Vietnam's hyper social Shenzhen is like hyper work. And Shenzhen is nice to like it's a beautiful city, like perfect urban planning. So I respect that about Shenzhen. For me, when I got here, I didn't have a job, right? So it was me and my partner, Heather. And I think I didn't have as many organizations that I could slot into and like kind of make friends through.
⁓ so Heather's network I worked with, or like, kind of like Susan, became friends through that. ⁓ and then also through like oil painting through that kind of network. but for me, honestly, when I was starting the backpack company, when I was, when I moved here, it was actually quite difficult for me, because what I realized I was spending a lot of time, just grinding on this business that I was trying to start.
And I was like, I need to give it my all. So I need to work, work my ass off for this. But what I realized was, I was kind of putting off making the community that I needed to here in Shenzhen. So, and it was, it's really hard to do anything if you don't have community, especially move to a new place, like move, move in with your partner.
Matthew Lu (56:08)
Yeah.
Owen (56:10)
learn a new country. So that that was extremely hard for me. And I realized that I wasn't investing enough in making the community here. So when I realized that, I mean, it's it's huge challenge and a lot of growth for me since I've come here. And I think reaching out to people setting up one on ones was really beneficial. It might seem like I, I can just like, go, go somewhere and meet people.
And I think that does happen a fair bit with me because I have like an maybe an open personality to strangers. ⁓ But it also takes work of like, asking people to hang out, setting up one on ones getting to know them and putting yourself in those like Josh's events, the tech and the tropics are really actually fun for me because I feel like I'm I'm part of the Shenzhen.
Matthew Lu (56:35)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (56:59)
tech ecosystem here when I go to those events, even though I'm not necessarily working in it, right. ⁓ So yeah, that mix of things. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (57:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
For sure. And so kind of now you've been working on this backpacking business for a little bit. But I don't think we ever talked about like why you decided to build a backpack like this particular product versus a lot of other products. Although we alluded to it a little bit in that you it's a travel backpack. So you're someone who has a lot of passion for traveling in general.
I think you're also working on a travel log that you're writing. So I just wanted to kind of use this opportunity also, maybe connect like why the travel backpack and then also like traveling's impact on your life and your perspective in general. Yeah.
Owen (57:35)
⁓ Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, when we go places, everyone had everyone brings a backpack unless you bring a duffel bag or a suitcase. Basically, everyone in the airport has a backpack and and I feel like it's it's a little cliche this thought of mine, but I think through traveling to other places, we gain a different perspective on our own life, right?
Matthew Lu (58:00)
Yeah, not cool. Just kidding. ⁓
Susan Su (58:03)
Thank
Owen (58:18)
So I've always wanted to learn about the world. And when I learn about the world and how different things are in other places, I learn about, my own reality back home, right? Back home in the U S and as living abroad in Asia and backpacks, I've always taken them with me. I do a lot of motorcycle riding, ⁓ do hiking. I go to the coffee shop and work. And the backpack for me is like a simple enough product that it's
Matthew Lu (58:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Owen (58:47)
you can do it with minimal upfront capital cost to prototype actually very, very minimal. But it's also technical enough where it requires design, like I'm from Portland and Nike and shoe design is really huge in Portland and backpacks being in like Portland has the outdoor, adventurey kind of grungy vibe. So backpacks fit in nicely with that background to
Matthew Lu (59:09)
Yeah.
Owen (59:13)
So yeah, mean, backpacks, the business is half about the business model of pricing transparency. And as an experiment, I'm not sure if it will work. But the other side is, hey, I want to design my own product and I want to make it perfect for what I use it for, which is anything from, you know, like a solo motorcycle trip in Kyrgyzstan to working at a cafe in Shenzhen. So
Matthew Lu (59:19)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (59:37)
That's kind of why a backpack, it could be other things. It could be like a cup or something, I don't know. But a backpack is what I decided on. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (59:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Gotcha. Very cool. Very cool. Awesome. And what is the name of the brand that you've decided to start and where did that come from?
Owen (59:55)
Yeah, so the name of the brand is swi swi is the Vietnamese word for mango. And I named it a Vietnamese word. Because I wanted to show the connection between Vietnam and also the connection between the producer and the consumer, right? I don't want to hide behind like, my gosh, it's, of course, it's, of course, it's made in Asia, it's probably cheap. Like we
Matthew Lu (1:00:01)
Mm-hmm.
yeah, let's call
it Mango Trek. What a beautiful name.
Owen (1:00:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
There's also you know, like in the US it's everything's like laws in the US. So everything's copyrighted. If you have a word, it's probably been used an English word. It's probably been used in a adventure gear ⁓ company before. That's why they're coming up with weird names now like Cotopaxi and Arcterix and Patagonia and stuff like this because a lot of the names have been used. So
Matthew Lu (1:00:40)
Mm-hmm.
That makes sense.
Owen (1:00:51)
Yeah, think that's why mango is my favorite fruit too. So there's a, there's a few reasons.
Matthew Lu (1:00:51)
⁓ I see.
Susan Su (1:00:57)
Nice. I also do like mangoes. Yeah. Although I wonder if there's I wonder if they have like durian pack. Like, what if that's a thing? Like, what's the what's the Vietnamese word for durian? Just do you know just out of curiosity?
Matthew Lu (1:01:02)
Good tropical.
Owen (1:01:02)
Good fruit.
Souring. Souring. It would sell well in Vietnam, but souring. Yeah, but it wouldn't sell well in America, I don't think.
Susan Su (1:01:13)
Soury.
Matthew Lu (1:01:13)
Souring.
Susan Su (1:01:16)
Hmm. Souring pack.
Matthew Lu (1:01:17)
⁓
Susan Su (1:01:19)
That
Matthew Lu (1:01:19)
Yeah.
Susan Su (1:01:20)
has a ring to it. If I ever want to start a competing backpack business, souring pack, fanning pack business. True. We can check after. Anyways, so, ⁓ yeah, tell us more about your vision for Swypax and
Matthew Lu (1:01:25)
Mm-hmm, or a fanny pack business? ⁓
Owen (1:01:29)
I bet you it's not copyrighted yet. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:01:29)
Battle of the Packs.
Susan Su (1:01:42)
And also your relationship with this factory, like since this, ⁓ this kind of like the source, this like the producer to consumer, this part is very obviously very important. ⁓ Very important for your brand. who are the producers, this factory that you've had a really good relationship with and yeah, what is your vision from there?
Matthew Lu (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:02:02)
Yeah, so I partner with a small bespoke bag manufacturer in Ho Chi Minh City called FFG. I did a big supplier search when I was looking for the for the vendor because who and like how it's made is really important to my values because I want it to be made in Vietnam, where I like going for travel. So maybe when I'm older, it brings me back to Vietnam once in a while.
But yeah, FFG, they're BSC certified, which is a third party certification for like labor conditions. They're also solar powered. But the important thing for me beyond the certifications and the power is the feeling of the factory. And I've gone to many factories in Vietnam, also many factories in the backpack industry in Vietnam. And the the
it basically is a backpack factories a bunch of machines lined up. And it's it's the right size. It's not massive. It's not too small with like low ceilings and like LED, bright LED strip lights that are like buzzing. It's beautiful. It's like, well ventilated high ceilings, good light plants around daylight. It's it's a nice place to work. I mean,
Matthew Lu (1:03:00)
Mm.
Owen (1:03:21)
The wages of course are low in Vietnam, ⁓ but the wages there are competitive with the surrounding area. And I mean, if you're a textile worker in Vietnam, I would imagine working there is not unlike going to the US and working at a factory in the US where it's a job you're making, you know, your employer does care about you. And it's not a mindless job, but it's still a job like many of us have.
Matthew Lu (1:03:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:03:50)
So
that's FFG. I'm really proud to manufacture the bags there. yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:03:59)
Cool.
Susan Su (1:04:00)
Yeah, no, that's awesome. it's great to get to know who's making your products and have that relationship with them and to know that the thing you're wearing on your back or like you're wearing just on your body was like, was the product of something good.
Matthew Lu (1:04:17)
Yeah, like, because we usually don't want to know, right? Because it's something terrible. But what if we do want to know because it's responsibly sourced and it's, you know, it can be a good thing, transparent thing. That's a very cool kind of thing you're experimenting with, right?
Susan Su (1:04:23)
Thanks
Owen (1:04:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's an experiment. Yeah, because I want to get more into like, eventually, once I have more scale, and if I have more scale, I'd like to understand more of like the textile sourcing, because I know that gets into a gray area of the apparel industry. Unfortunately, it's small, I don't have the size and the bandwidth to get that into it. But yeah, I think there's a lot, it's kind of just like an experiment for me to like a passion project to see
Matthew Lu (1:04:50)
Mm.
Owen (1:05:02)
If the market is interested in trans like really transparently priced and source stuff. I think it definitely raises more questions than it answers saying the numbers that I do. But at least it encourages a conversation and some people. So far, some people have liked that the Kickstarter was successful ⁓ and getting some orders now. So yeah, it's cool.
Matthew Lu (1:05:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Awesome, yeah.
Susan Su (1:05:24)
Yeah, no, for sure. think just raising this point and getting that conversation started and having people be more mindful about where their products are coming from. think that's always going to help this greater movement that hopefully will come along. so what's your vision for Swypax and I guess for yourself?
Owen (1:05:42)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (1:05:51)
You're in Shenzhen, you're developing this brand. Where do you see yourself in a couple years?
Matthew Lu (1:05:59)
Yeah, any goals or aspirations for the next few years or long-term.
Owen (1:06:05)
Yeah, yeah. I think Shenzhen is really interesting for the community of like, tech people, founders, small businesses that are working here and companies that are doing really, really interesting things. We'll be in Shenzhen for another couple years. Who knows exactly how long? ⁓ I think with
Matthew Lu (1:06:24)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:06:26)
with swipe packs, I'll be probably I'm reevaluating ⁓ if it like at what level I want to commit to it going forwards. But what I do like about it is I like the ability to make products that exactly how I like, test them through my adventures and trips that I go on, and then share them with the world. So I regard like the Kickstarter is done the
Matthew Lu (1:06:44)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:06:54)
orders are being shipped soon. so whether or not it continues and it continues to be like a huge focus of mine, I think it will continue in a S definitely in a small form of me designing, building marketing, packs that I really enjoy. So, designs that I really enjoy. So yeah, and that way it will continue. ⁓ yeah, the, future, who knows?
Matthew Lu (1:07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:07:20)
Who knows, moving to China was a big, another challenge for me. And I'm not living away from home, from my family for any other reason than to learn about the world and like continue to grow. So as long as that keeps occurring that I'm happy wherever that may be. But yeah, now is definitely the China portion of my life. There's so much to learn about China. And like the travels are shifting more towards
Matthew Lu (1:07:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:07:45)
I guess you could say China and Central Asia away from like Southeast Asia and stuff like that. So it's been, it's been a really nice shift this year. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:07:50)
Mm-hmm. You're in a very Chinese part of your life right now. That's like a
social media meme, by the way. What does it even mean, anyways?
Owen (1:08:01)
You
Susan Su (1:08:03)
I haven't heard of that one. You're in a very Chinese part of your life. I guess I just left a very Chinese part of my
Owen (1:08:04)
I don't know.
Matthew Lu (1:08:05)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓
It's popular. Yeah, exactly. It's popular with the young kids. Cool.
Susan Su (1:08:14)
I see.
Owen (1:08:15)
Yeah,
well, it's fascinating. feel like whereas with Vietnam, I was able to kind of figure Vietnam out like relatively quickly. China is just mega. Like, I don't know what's even though I've been here and I've really been like immersing myself in it. There's just so much to figure out. And as a foreigner that doesn't speak Chinese, it's
Matthew Lu (1:08:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
for sure.
Owen (1:08:39)
It's difficult, but fascinating.
Matthew Lu (1:08:41)
You're getting
there. Three classes a week, that's...
Susan Su (1:08:43)
Yeah, we just need to take
you around Beijing next time. Next time the three of us are in Beijing.
Owen (1:08:44)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:08:46)
Yeah, just need to plop
you in Beijing for a year and you'll be good. You'll be good. No English.
Owen (1:08:52)
Yeah, well, I really want to go to Beijing. Susan, you got me
on. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:08:58)
Yeah, no, you'll
Matthew Lu (1:08:59)
Hit me up for Rex too, yeah. I lived there for four years.
Susan Su (1:08:59)
enjoy it. Yes, yes, Matt is like, Matt's a real local at this point.
Matthew Lu (1:09:07)
Yeah, so like
Owen (1:09:08)
Okay, what's your
favorite part about Beijing? I got a question for you.
Matthew Lu (1:09:13)
Honestly,
yeah. I kind of like how everybody is unapologetically Chinese in Beijing, which sounds interesting, I think you'll understand what I mean when you contrast it with some place like Shanghai or even like Shenzhen, because it's close to Hong Kong. Like when you're that close to the political center and people like there's so much history and there's a sense of pride of
Owen (1:09:30)
Okay.
Matthew Lu (1:09:38)
people who are from Beijing, they have their own way of doing things. And it's like this whole different system that is not international at all in certain ways, but at the same time, it's not hostile to us either. In fact, it's quite welcoming in a lot of ways, a very quaint kind of down to earth, sometimes very direct way.
Owen (1:09:52)
Hmm.
Matthew Lu (1:10:04)
That's kind of reflected through the relationships that I have with locals and the interactions that I have with the people there. In the beginning, I thought it was kind of jarring, but over time, I kind of got used to it and actually started to prefer it in a certain way. It just seems like they're very real down to earth. like they want like simple things in life.
Owen (1:10:20)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:10:26)
They want simplicity a lot of it's also like, family relationships And that's kind of refreshing. Yeah
Owen (1:10:32)
I respect that. Sounds fascinating.
Matthew Lu (1:10:34)
Definitely some place to check out in your travels.
Owen (1:10:34)
Yeah.
on the list. It's pretty high. It's very high up on the list. Honestly, it's gonna happen soon. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:10:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓
Susan Su (1:10:45)
Yeah,
that's an interesting point, Matt. I can see it, although I guess I was just so Beijing's my like was my only exposure to China for like the first like 20 years of my life. So it was just like, it was just like my default, I guess. then, yeah, but I would, I would say the not that anyone asked, I don't know you were just asking Matt, but if you were to cut this out, but like just to or yeah, mean, this probably won't.
Matthew Lu (1:10:54)
Yeah, it's like your hub, your home hub.
Yeah, yeah. I am. I'm asking. I'm asking now.
Owen (1:11:10)
Yeah, me too.
Susan Su (1:11:11)
this
in the podcast, but like, I'm like, I just wanted to say I like the the resistance nature. I don't know how do I how to explain this. I like that there's a there's a type of like, spirit of resistance and the people there that I think I spent a lot of time with the art community and
Matthew Lu (1:11:13)
All good.
Owen (1:11:20)
Thank
Matthew Lu (1:11:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Susan Su (1:11:32)
The underground scene in Beijing is incredible, I would say. And I think it's partially due to the fact that there's so many colleges that you get this renewed sense of resistance slash rebellion with each new generation of students. And they're always trying to experiment with new things. they're always trying to, they're always, they're still discovering themselves. They have all of these radical ideas. They're not tamed yet by the system. And they,
Matthew Lu (1:12:00)
Yeah,
yeah.
Susan Su (1:12:01)
It's like their time to go wild and that breeds a lot of creativity and a lot of authenticity. that contributes just like this like spirit of resistance. think that despite being so close to like the emperor, the political center, you still see so much like good art. You see so much like radicalism in a Chinese context.
Matthew Lu (1:12:15)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:12:16)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:12:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
music too. Rock and roll culture. It's kind of, it was really big there before. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:12:29)
Yeah, the rock and roll scene. Yeah,
yeah, the underground art scene. yeah, think people there. Yeah, you got to go and you got it. You got to go with us. Like we got to show you around like or just like or all. Yeah, like some some locals who like know that scene.
Owen (1:12:36)
I gotta go.
Matthew Lu (1:12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:12:45)
Yeah, I'd love that. I'd love that.
Matthew Lu (1:12:46)
They send you some interesting places
to walk around and then you can just explore. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:12:52)
Yeah. In any, anyways, I back to the podcast, Matt, go ahead.
Owen (1:12:53)
Love it. It sounds amazing.
Matthew Lu (1:12:57)
Okay, yeah.
So, we also, we have some younger listeners for this podcast and I always like to ask my friends who come on the show to give a little bit of perspective, wisdom or advice, anything that comes to mind just based off of your own life experiences. And something that you said, which really stuck out to me was like building this kind of positive feedback loop in your life.
So while you're designing a product like the backpack, you're also designing your own life at the same time, where, like you said, you love to travel. And so you've built traveling into the format of the buildup of your life as a way to go and experiment with the products that you need to design and to actually get on the ground and to see what's going on. And so this kind of like graceful
design of your life is something that I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about and how that's been if that's like a conscious thing or if not, you know, what kind of advice do you have for young people who are also looking for like a more balanced life?
Owen (1:14:08)
Yeah, I think I love this question because I like you Matt, I really enjoy like helping and like working with people that are like in the 20s, early 20s, late teens about what to do with their lives because like we talked about earlier, I didn't exactly have my path figured out. But what the advice I can give is
Matthew Lu (1:14:24)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:14:33)
lean into your passions, follow opportunity, make sure that you're putting yourself in even if it's not the opportunity you necessarily want. Or you might be able to get right out of school. Make sure that you're putting yourself in an opportunity where there's going to be other doors opening after you enter this one, right? I think going through life with a bravery
to try things and to go out on a limb to like, mean, if you got on the limb, the, the, I think it's the, the failure, the regret is so much worse than failure actually. And it's hard to learn because we don't do things because we're scared that we might fail and that's our brain protecting us. But
Matthew Lu (1:15:17)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:15:18)
moving somewhere for a job or an opportunity or starting something and putting yourself out there into the world is actually what life is all about what I'm what I'm learning and I'm only learning about it like I mean this year has been really big for me.
So yeah, going towards opportunity, going with bravery and keeping an open heart will attract positive experiences and positive opportunities. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:15:45)
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Thank you for that.
Susan Su (1:15:48)
It's great. Yeah.
And I like the way you put it, like keeping an open heart. Because I think we hear open mindedness a lot. I think it's one thing to open your mind, but to open your heart, that's another level. It's a level like vulnerability and also it is. Yeah. Yeah. But
Matthew Lu (1:15:56)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's much harder than open mind, right? Especially
because when life happens, we want to close ourselves off sometimes. Especially when the challenges come and we're not sure if we're ready to brace them, or maybe things don't go our way. Our natural instinct is to close up the mind or the heart and to keep both of them open at the same time requires a lot of work, lot of passion, a lot of experiencing, a lot of traveling perhaps.
Owen (1:16:10)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:16:33)
lot of perspective. ⁓ So thank you for that. And also another bar, another
bar I wanted to highlight was, it's very simple, but I never thought about it like this. Just make sure that the opportunity or the door that you open will also lead to other doors. And I just had this visualization of like, you know, some opportunities are definitely not like that.
When you open up the door, it's just like a room with no windows, right? A desk, something for you to do. And that's such a simple kind of distinction to visualize. But, you know, if the room at least has windows or maybe another side door, then that could be enough, right? It's not your dream job right now, but it could be enough. So yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
Owen (1:17:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it ties into that. think also, even if you don't like I didn't know what to do, but I knew what I didn't want to be doing. And what I didn't want to be doing was something that was boring to me. And I knew what boring was what boring was.
Matthew Lu (1:17:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Owen (1:17:39)
Yeah, well, I just didn't want to have a boring life. Like I wanted to be doing things that I myself view to be as exciting. Like I want, you know, motorcycle trips, I want to live in a foreign country, I want to do x, y, and z. So I knew the I knew not to settle for things that I wouldn't want. And it kept me looking outside that window or outside that door to use your analogy. Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:17:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:18:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:18:11)
Yeah, no, for sure. think that's a theme that unites all of our podcast guests and Matt and I. And that's also part of why we decided to name this liminal space is that, mean, maybe that door just leads to a liminal space. But that's just the way it is. mean, sometimes by being in between, it gives you all the options to go to all the places that in between this leads to. ⁓
Matthew Lu (1:18:12)
Awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:18:41)
all comes around.
Matthew Lu (1:18:42)
We're all pioneers on our Oregonian trails, huh?
Susan Su (1:18:47)
So, all right. So just wrapping up our discussion, man, like time really flew by this one for sure. ⁓ One fun thing we like to do with our podcast guests ⁓ is your generic recommendation section at the end, but the twist is that our guest gets to decide the category of recommendation and then
Owen (1:18:55)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Su (1:19:09)
Matt and I will have to think of something on the spot to match them. yeah, please go ahead Owen. What is your category and what is your rec?
Owen (1:19:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm actually gonna throw you guys for a loop. So something that I am personally interested in knowing is if you were on an island stranded with one music artist, artist band group, and you could only listen to their music while you're on this island, what would that band group or person be?
Matthew Lu (1:19:20)
okay. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dang. That's a good one.
Susan Su (1:19:44)
So is the goal to make it
out of the island or no?
Owen (1:19:47)
No, it's it's
Matthew Lu (1:19:48)
It
Owen (1:19:48)
you only have one thing to listen to. Yeah, you only have one. You only have one. So you have to choose something that you have to choose something that has like enough. You also need to choose something that has like fast paced, you know, sleepy stuff and good just generally good music. Because if you choose an artist that has like one good song, then you're going to have to listen to that on repeat. So what would that artist be?
Matthew Lu (1:19:48)
depends.
Susan Su (1:19:50)
Okay, okay.
Matthew Lu (1:19:56)
Mm-hmm.
I see
Susan Su (1:20:12)
Hmm.
Matthew Lu (1:20:13)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Owen (1:20:16)
I can say mine, but I do want to hear yours first. Yeah. Be the the Eagles. Like an older country rock band. Yeah. Good sunset music.
Matthew Lu (1:20:18)
Go, yeah, okay. You go first, yeah.
Susan Su (1:20:20)
Yeah,
go ahead.
Matthew Lu (1:20:25)
Mm-hmm, okay. Throwback. Classic rock, yeah.
Susan Su (1:20:28)
Why is that?
⁓
Matthew Lu (1:20:32)
Any album or?
Owen (1:20:32)
⁓
No, ⁓ their live album. Their live album is great. The artists in general, the songs you can you can listen to, like in nature, they complement nature quite nicely. And they also they're introspective. But yeah, they have fast paced, slow, beautiful rock, couple different genres there. But yeah, what about you guys?
Matthew Lu (1:20:35)
Just like them in general, the artists in general.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Awesome.
Susan Su (1:20:58)
I can go just because I feel that, so I'm someone who I'm pretty indifferent towards music in general. And that I feel that like, I'm always like talking inside my head. Like my inner monologue is so strong that I feel like it tunes out like any music I'm listening to, like any podcast I'm listening to unless I'm really trying to focus on it or it really tunes out anything. So I feel like it doesn't matter that much to me because
Matthew Lu (1:21:13)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Susan Su (1:21:27)
I probably, it probably just won't, I probably won't even hear it really. So as long as I, my God. feel like maybe just like, I don't know, like Chopin or like some, classical music that's like non, like very neutral, whatever. Cause it honestly like music is just not something that affects me that much. And I imagine if I'm stuck on an island, I will be thinking about a lot of
Matthew Lu (1:21:27)
Mm-hmm.
You need like 746 Hz. That one frequency. That sound. I'm just kidding. Block out everything.
Owen (1:21:33)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:21:42)
Yeah.
That's hard.
Susan Su (1:21:55)
random things that will just tune out whatever background. Yeah, man.
Owen (1:21:56)
Yeah, the internal monologue will be strong.
Matthew Lu (1:21:58)
Fair enough, yeah. Fair enough.
⁓
Susan Su (1:22:03)
Matt,
go ahead.
Matthew Lu (1:22:04)
I think for me, I have a favorite band. It's the band that I listened to in middle school, high school, all the way growing up. went to a concert this year to see them after they reunited with my childhood friend. It's a punk rock slash emo and then later pop punk band called My Chemical Romance. You heard of it. Yeah, yeah, that's my favorite band, my favorite artist.
Owen (1:22:25)
Okay.
Susan Su (1:22:27)
wow. Wow, didn't you know you were an MCR
Owen (1:22:28)
Wait.
Susan Su (1:22:31)
fan? Dang that.
Matthew Lu (1:22:32)
Yeah,
I was an emo kid at heart. guess I still am in some ways. And they have a lot of range. I still listen to their albums end to end sometimes. From earlier on, it's a little bit more angsty, a little bit more emo, a little more kind of more anguish. And then over time, becomes a little bit more triumphant, a little bit more experimental, a little bit more upbeat.
Susan Su (1:22:36)
Mmm.
Owen (1:22:40)
Thank you.
Matthew Lu (1:23:00)
And in every record there are, you know, heavy bangers. There are also slow ballads with really nice lyrics. So if we're just picking like overall discography, I would definitely pick them because I do, I still listen to them a lot every year. I have a nostalgic place in my heart. Yeah. And I recommend everybody, I recommend everyone to listen.
Owen (1:23:18)
Cool.
Awesome. I'll have to give them a listen.
Very good. I'll check them out.
Matthew Lu (1:23:26)
There's a little bit of
for everyone, I think. They're kind of like, sorry I'm just yapping now, they're kind of like a spiritual successor to Queen, the band Queen in some ways. ⁓ Although it's not super obvious, but some of their songs are like kind of operatic in a way, in structure and design. So yeah.
Susan Su (1:23:39)
interesting.
Hmm.
Owen (1:23:50)
feel like you could do like album reviews
Susan Su (1:23:51)
Wow.
Owen (1:23:52)
on YouTube or something. You've got a good sense of like, vocab on this stuff.
Susan Su (1:23:54)
Hahaha
Matthew Lu (1:23:56)
Ha
Thanks.
Susan Su (1:24:00)
Matt is just
good at reviewing things, feel like. He's got insightful things to say.
Matthew Lu (1:24:03)
Yeah, write vinyl reviews on my sub stack sometimes. So I just like listen. I listen to like a vinyl that I put on from beginning to end. And then while I'm listening to it in real time, I'm just like jotting down some of my thoughts. So it's not really like a serious review. It's more like my take. But it's just like an interesting hobby that I have, I guess.
Owen (1:24:09)
That's it. Cool.
What's your take on sub stack really quick? I'm curious
Susan Su (1:24:32)
⁓
Matthew Lu (1:24:33)
I don't
really like, I'm not like that well versed in it, but it seems like just like a really interesting social network platform for people who want to yap to like yap at each other and to give each other likes and shares and stuff. And I got into it because I'm interested in like
Owen (1:24:48)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:24:57)
some of the China watcher crowd people, like intellectuals and like journalists who write about China and like US-China relations, geopolitics. So that's how I got into it. And then later on, just started, like I wanted to write my own stuff. And I was like, might as well just like use this platform because I already have an account. So I've just been using it like that. I think it's, it has a lot of features. I'll give it that.
Owen (1:25:06)
Yeah. Okay.
Matthew Lu (1:25:20)
And there's a lot of interesting content on there, a lot of interesting people. So you should make an account and check it out. You could probably find a lot of stuff that you would be interested in.
Owen (1:25:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I've made an account. I'm kind of like starting around on sub stack, but I'll need to get those China American voices from you on sub stack. Yeah.
Susan Su (1:25:41)
You should, you should follow
Matthew Lu (1:25:41)
Yeah.
Susan Su (1:25:42)
us. will then we can tag you in the podcasts. We've been sharing the podcast via sub stack and yeah, we're, yeah, we're both pretty, pretty fairly active on it. It's my new Twitter. Like I, cause all the China watchers moved from Twitter to sub stack. So I just read it for like all the takes and like it's, it's been insightful.
Matthew Lu (1:25:44)
We'll follow you too, yeah.
Owen (1:25:49)
Okay.
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:25:58)
Mm-hmm.
Owen (1:26:05)
Yeah, some of my there's these like creative guys that I feel like creative like artists and stuff kind of go to Substack to share their, their like written stories with the world and like their photos and stuff. So that's kind of what got me on I noticed that these like, people that I follow on like Instagram that have these like interesting kind of alternative lives are on Substack writing their thoughts. So yeah, I'll check it out.
Matthew Lu (1:26:14)
yeah.
For sure.
Yeah, even
Charlie XCX, she has a stuff sub stack now where she's just like writing, she's just riffing what whatever comes off the mind. And yeah, I know what you're talking about, because I'm also kind of interested in those, those sub stacks as well. It's like where the artists talk about like, like their artistic philosophy or like their approach to aesthetics, and then they give like tips about like how you can be more creative.
Owen (1:26:36)
crazy.
Susan Su (1:26:39)
Yeah.
Matthew Lu (1:26:57)
I like reading about those things as well. A lot of them.
Susan Su (1:26:59)
Yeah,
Owen (1:27:00)
Yeah.
Susan Su (1:27:01)
awesome.
So that's a wrap on today's episode of Liminal Space, where we navigate the thresholds of culture, identity and experience.
If our conversation resonated with you, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, or share your own story. We love to hear what you've discovered and the spaces in between. Join us next time as we continue to explore what it means to live in the liminal. See you next time. Bye-bye.
Matthew Lu (1:27:28)
Bye bye! Woohoo!
Owen (1:27:30)
Bye.
Matthew Lu (1:27:31)
ya.
